Mindscapes and Frontlines: Lt Col Emily Grace on the Intertwining Paths of Psychology and Military Service

As I sat with Emily Grace, a seasoned psychologist who took the scenic route to her expertise, it became clear that her journey was as much about the mind as it was about the heart. With Colonel retired Robert Swanson sharing riveting tales from the front lines of military psychology, we traversed the realms of mental health, culture, and personal development in a conversation that promises to resonate long after you've listened.

From the philosophic halls of St. John's College to the rigorous training at Harvard and MGH, Emily's narrative weaves through her decision to focus on neuropsychology and work with children to her intentional disconnection from social media, favoring a more grounded present moment. Robert Swanson joins us to illuminate the stark realities and uplifting victories within military mental health, offering an unfiltered look at the challenges and triumphs of service members. Their stories bring to life the depth of psychological practice and the essential balance of technology in our daily lives.

The episode wraps with a candid discussion on the cultural shifts needed to normalize mental health care across civilian and military life. It's an eye-opener that mental fitness is just as critical as physical fitness, and we delve into the resources available for those embarking on their mental health journeys. As we close, remember: beyond our basic needs lies a hierarchy that beckons us toward a fulfilling life, one where recognizing our internal and external needs is paramount. Join us on this enlightening exploration of the human psyche and the quest for meaning in both career and life.

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Transcript

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Career Journey and Personal Background

Speaker 1 0:24

Hello everyone and welcome to Mind Matters , where , if it's on your mind , it matters the podcast for love , life and learning . I'm your host , nate Shear , and today we have Emily Grace on the show . Welcome to the show , thank you . Can you list your AFSC ?

Speaker 2 0:37

My AFSC is a 42 Papa and I am a psychologist .

Speaker 1 0:41

Okay , so that's the AFSC and official title . How did you become interested in this particular field ?

Speaker 2 0:46

I think it was a long road . I say I take the scenic route to get here . I started undergrad . I received my degree from St John's College , which I like to say . I played basketball for St John's , but in fact that was up in New York in a school I went to . It was a small liberal arts school in Annapolis . They have another campus that's over in Santa Fe .

Speaker 2 1:04

Our program is quite unique in a sense that we don't really get grades and we're not taught . We have seminars and discussions and they try to come out with some sort of major and minor that's equivalent to other schools . So they say that I have a major in philosophy and what I learned is after I graduated from there there's no philosophy factory , and so I was a bit of a lost soul . All I knew is that I knew nothing . So I meandered , worked a whole bunch of different jobs , and one of those jobs happened to be working in a mental health treatment , rehabilitation environment , and that opened my eyes .

Speaker 2 1:33

I decided I wanted to figure out a little bit how people understood the world because it's a lot like philosophy in that regard and at the same time do some good in the world , and so I started out getting my master's degree , which I got from Loyola College in Baltimore , and I began working with adolescents , because that's the time where you're trying to figure out who you are . You know , when you're an adolescent child and your teenager is fighting against the rules of the house and they don't want to listen and they're talking back , while you have to , of course , redirect them inside , you know you're kind of like , yes , because they're thinking they're trying to be free and figure themselves out . And so I got really excited about that , decided I wanted to work with inner city kids and did that for a while as an LCPC . But the challenge really became that I couldn't do as much good as I wanted to because a lot of those kids didn't have people to advocate for them .

Speaker 2 2:17

So then I decided to get my doctorate , because then you can do testing , and what psych testing does is it provides the evidence that the interventions to make them warranted to make change happen . And so in that process I decided to go to American School of Professional Psychology in DC . I got my doctorate in psychology with a concentration in neuropsychology , and at that time Walter Reed was a big deal PTSD , ied , blast , tbi , brain injuries and so I became interested and inspired to join the military . I did that and then a few years later was able to get a postdoc through Harvard and MGH and specialized with children and came full circle back to kids again . So that's how I got myself planted here .

Speaker 1 3:01

That's awesome . That's definitely the scenic route . It reminds me I mean not necessarily on the school aspect , but I've , you know , slung tires , went to lifeguards , sold cars and done a few different things . So we all end up where we're supposed to . Sometimes it takes a little bit . We're going to move into the intro , learn a little bit more about you and understanding the latest foundation as we move forward . So first question is where are you from ? Tell us your origin story .

Speaker 2 3:24

Well , I am from Sin City and then moved to the heroin using Capital of the World . So , born in Las Vegas , my eyes were open from a very young age and then moved to really more so the Annapolis region , but then up to Baltimore and down to DC and if anybody's watched the wire back in the day , that pretty much sums up Baltimore . But Annapolis is a little bit more sheltered , so that one that was a nice place to grow up . So that's where I'm from .

Speaker 1 3:47

Okay , so the best question I've seen so far to try to learn a little bit about you and lay this foundation , like I mentioned , is to ask you this three part question so we can kind of understand where you're coming from before we dump more into the questions further for you . So first part of the three point question is what is an app you're using ?

Speaker 2 4:04

I'm not . I pretty much got rid of all of my social media applications . So I don't know , at some point I just got really fed up with the whole Facebook , tiktok , snapchat , twitter , instagram , you name it . It's just , it was just , it's not . It can be very helpful , but there's some other aspects that I think you know . We need to live our lives and be real in the here and now . So I stopped using it and so since then , the only apps I use are really like texting . So there is a couple of like Signal or WhatsApp that are more used overseas , but I think if I was back to the outside , I'd probably just use texting , just keeping it simple like the olden days .

Speaker 1 4:39

Sounds good . So you're not using any budgeting or any other like productivity type apps , not necessarily social media of anything else .

Speaker 2 4:45

No For that stuff . I just have you know , of course , your bank account apps and wherever you've got your wealth management portfolio that you might check on a Friday night , because you're just like that .

Speaker 1 4:54

But otherwise , no , no , no other apps , okay , one book

Books, Music, and Careers in Psychology

Speaker 1 4:59

you recommend .

Speaker 2 4:59

My favorite book of all time that I wrote my college thesis on was Ralph Ellison's Invisible man . That book was . I think it speaks a lot to the problems in society and the challenges in society and , of course , the issues that affect , you know , the African Americans and just how horrific humans can be , whether intentional or not intentional , and how we need to get past and see the light . But outside that , currently I'm reading the Flight of St Louis , which is interesting because you think I mean it's quite an exciting book . I don't know what I was initially thinking when I got the book . I was thinking it was kind of going to be this boring aeronautical book and I'm not a pilot by any means but it's so much more than that . It's about how you can have a dream and you can make it happen from nothing . It's so inspirational , so I highly recommend it .

Speaker 1 5:44

So , out of curiosity , you mentioned two books . What would you say the biggest takeaway from both of those books ? You kind of touched on that with the Invisible man , but is there any more takeaways from those two that would inspire someone to go and get these two ?

Speaker 2 5:54

I think that you can overcome adversity is probably the biggest takeaway if you're looking for the theme between the two of them . If people tell you , no , this can't happen and this is the way life is , try to fight it and try to achieve what you want .

Speaker 1 6:06

Those are some great takeaways , and the last part of the three part is what's something you're listening to Cool ?

Speaker 2 6:12

Everything and anything . My playlist is on my computer from , I think , back when I graduated from college , so it's kind of ancient now , but I had downloaded and , I guess , uploaded maybe all of my CDs to my iTunes back then . So it ranges anywhere from folk music all the way to ADM , to drum and bass , to hip hop , anything and everything . So I don't really have something specific per se .

Speaker 1 6:35

That's awesome . It's great to hear the music from before . I don't know if I'm becoming that back in my day old man , but it just feels like the music was better 90s , early 2000s . But I'm sure it's that nostalgia factor . But some of this , like mumble rap and other things going on , I'm like I don't , even I can't even hear anything . So , yeah , that's great . I think that stuff was much better in 2009 . And around out the introduction what's one lesson you believe everyone in life should learn ?

Speaker 2 7:00

So it kind of goes , I think , along the theme with the two books that I was mentioning , is that when life gets you down , hang on to hope and hang on to your beliefs and if you're able to do that , then transcendence , if you transcend your problems , if you overcome them , life will be good and good things will happen . And it really comes down to having hope and some kind of faith that good things will happen .

Speaker 1 7:25

Yeah , I think that's super important . I feel like there's a fine balance , and there's balance with everything in life , because I think you don't want to get into the YOLO type lifestyle where you're just wiling out and going crazy . But you also have to know that things will change , and this too shall pass , or the many different phrases that things are constantly changing . So if you just stick with it for a little bit longer , whatever it is will change , even positive or negative .

Speaker 1 7:47

I saw a thing it was a short clip from Tom Hanks . He had talked about that he was sitting around the table , which I knew where that was from , but that's what he was saying . He was like even when you're doing great , you have to know that that'll change . Or when things are bad , you have to know that'll change . Everything will always pass at some point . So we're going to move into the AFSC portion , so the career field portion of this . Learn a little bit more about your specific career field . So we're going to start off with giving a brief description of your career field from someone that does it every day , not the Google version .

Speaker 1 8:15

I'm sure every day looks very different , but a generalized day .

Speaker 2 8:20

So the non-Google version . Psychologists sit way too long . It's lots and lots of sitting and lots of listening . You listen for hours upon hours and you sit and you listen for hours upon hours , and I think when people want to help and they want to get into this career field , they think to themselves oh yeah , I want to help people , and they forget that part of that is listening , and it's a lot of it , and so by the time you get home you're a bit drained , but it is rewarding . You do get to help people .

Speaker 2 8:56

I can tell you , though , when I have mentees and they've wanted to get into this career field , oh my gosh , I just tell them like , don't do it . Don't do it Because it's you know it's long , it's hard , it's draining . You hear people complain . People are not exactly usually chipper right when they first come and see you , because they're dealing with some pretty significant issues and you're just trying to help them and it just takes so much out of you and by the end you know you could be doing other things where you're making a bit more money and you're active .

Speaker 2 9:24

But you know , as you might expect , like good psychologists , they didn't listen , and so most of the people I mentee they ended up deciding to become psychologists as well , even though I warned them . But no , I mean seriously , it can be really rewarding also . So yes , there is listening , but you're also playing an active role , and back in my philosophy days we call it Socratic Dialogue . So you're sort of guiding the conversation with the only you know , through asking questions and with the other person's own thoughts , so that you're finding the right answer for that particular individual , and it's very rewarding when that change does happen . So that's that part's great .

Speaker 1 9:58

That's awesome . I got a couple of questions from your responses . So I actually had Chaplain Holly Jones on the show as well , and it makes me think of a similar question . So as a chaplain , she's kind of taking in the troubles of people and you're saying the same thing . So have you noticed ? Is there any difficult with relationships or anything ? When you get home ? You said that you've been listening all day and you're drained . Has that affected you ? Or how do you handle taking care of yourself so that you can continue to take care of others ?

Speaker 2 10:23

Yeah , yeah , it is hard when you get home . I tend to be a bit introverted anyway , and so then , like listening , when I've been actively listening for eight hours , I feel so bad , but sometimes I'm just . It's hard for me to actively listen when I'm home and I'm relaxed . So that part , that part , is hard . The other part that's really hard is , you know , when people do get better , that's the amazing part and that feels so good and you're so excited for them .

Speaker 2 10:45

But when you first start out , let's like take an example when I was self-employed , I had a lot of people who were maybe homeless or unemployed and so they could initially come to see me during the normal business hours . However , after they get on their feet and you know that's just great , you know they found work and they get a job they can't easily tell their boss hey , I have this weekly therapy appointment , I'm going to have to leave work now at this time . So what you end up doing is you shift your hours a lot to the evenings and I remember during those times you know , sometimes I'm working from 7pm to 9pm to accommodate after I was going to my graduate school , just to accommodate people who did need after hours and evening hours , and that takes away obviously time from home . I was in school all day and then all evening . Long I was there helping people . So that's not a lot of time when you're actively there at the house , and so really the family has to be really supportive also .

Speaker 1 11:39

So the second part of that question was what do you do or how do you do ? Do you also see a therapist to take care of the things that you're going through , to maintain that self care , or what does that look like from a person being a mental health professional ?

Speaker 2 11:51

Yeah , so I mean certainly could , but I end up doing a lot of other things . So my passion right now is surfing . I'm an active snowboarder , but now I'm living in Okinawa , Japan , and there is no snow here , so I had to learn how to surf . But I love being outdoors , I love hiking , I love running , biking , anything that gets me outdoors and active and physical , and there is a lot of evidence-based research to indicate that when you're physically active , that helps you improve your mental health . There's lots of fact about that .

Speaker 2 12:21

Now , outside of that , let's say , you're not really the outdoorsy type . I also play piano and I like to paint and draw , just listen to music , like you mentioned at the beginning , and of course , spend some time with friends also . But really that's what I rely on a lot , and I'm also a spiritual person . So I go to church and there's times when the church is Obviously sometimes that's a struggle , but then there's other times when it's been my greatest support and I can't imagine doing it without them , and then I think we may even talk about this a little bit later .

Speaker 2 12:48

But as far as mental health , I don't have my own therapist , but there's different types of mental health treatment out there , and so I have used some of those non-medical counseling folks at times and I just need to talk to them about one or two sessions or something like that , just because sometimes you get kind of down and you want an outside objective and then thankfully , being in the field , I can talk to my coworkers , and so I'm kind of blessed in that regard that I have therapists when I just walk two doors down whenever I need it . So they've heard me vent a lot , I'm sure .

Speaker 1 13:19

And I think it's a really good note to make , especially this being a focus on military . I definitely want to touch on all sorts of mental fitness as we talk about this . But specifically in the military we talk about the pillars and maintaining all those pillars to be a well-rounded , whole airman , and so that's one thing I've been pretty passionate about is talking about the spiritual pillar , because it seems like a lot of times people see that pillar and they think of church and nothing else . But I remember being stationed in Guam me attending church was definitely a spiritual aspect of it , but being in the water and being in nature and something about being around the earth and creation and things like that . So finding the thing that recharges you and gets you motivated and things like that doesn't have to be a building , doesn't have to be a specific thing , absolutely .

Speaker 1 14:01

So I hope people are like , oh , spirituality is how you feel and kind of that internal relationship and things like that . So if it's outside , if it's trees , if it's whatever it may be , that's a good point . I want to ask one last question , not to belabor this point and not to make it seem negative , but just out of curiosity . So when you see people and you talked about people bouncing back and the rewardiness of seeing people get better and things like that . Can you explain a time or how it feels when you see somebody that's not bouncing back and you're seeing them for the same things and it just feels like they're not making progression ? How does that feel ?

Speaker 2 14:33

Yeah , that happens . The way I look at that is if maybe it's not the right time for them . So there's something called motivational interviewing and that's usually used a lot for behavior changes such as smoking or alcohol use , and sometimes people are at that pre-contemplation or contemplation stage and that's okay because , maybe you're just planting that seed at that time and then at a later time they'll be ready for that change .

Speaker 2 14:56

And then other instances it may be that they're not ready to address that particular issue , but there's other things that we can work on . Perhaps they have a particular hobby and maybe they're struggling in one particular environment , but if they capitalize upon the strength that they have in this ability in another area , another domain , then they may do really well . And so there's a way to sort of steer people away from negative or maladaptive behaviors to more positive and healthy ones , even if you're not seeing that aha change or that great amount of change , just kind of slowly guiding them to maybe more healthy goals if you will .

Speaker 1 15:30

Absolutely , that's awesome . So we're going to transition , get to this lighter note , more positive

Military Psychology

Speaker 1 15:35

note . So I interviewed Colonel retired Robert Swanson . He came out and did suicide prevention . He has a company or a group in Hawaii named Fight for Us , I believe . Hopefully I got that right . I'm gonna have to go back and edit this . But he likes to stress and focus on the success stories and so I really like that concept because a lot of times we go , we sit in power points of all the warning signs , all the things to keep an eye on , all the negative aspects . It doesn't seem like as much we talk about the people that bounce back . So I heard you got some stories about homelessness , unemployed and then going on to winning some awards . So can you walk us through some of those success stories ?

Speaker 2 16:09

Sure . So aside from those kinds of examples , I think here in the military it's just amazing when you can see and work with individuals where they first came to you and they were in a dark place and didn't even know , maybe , if life was worthwhile , or maybe they're very anxious because of a traumatic event that happened to them . They can't sleep and don't know where to go and they're just really struggling . And when you can do whatever intervention it is that might be effective for that individual and you see them change , winning awards , getting promoted , you know , getting back in touch with family and talking about how amazing it is having friends , getting back in touch with whatever a hobby was that they had maybe put down for a while . That part is probably the best part of the job is when you see that difference in people .

Speaker 1 16:52

That's awesome . Yeah , it's good stuff to see the highlights and on the show here we want to make sure we're well rounded and people are hearing the full aspects of jobs , so kind of highlighted some positives there . What are some of the jobs , parts of the job , you consider less desirable ?

Speaker 2 17:06

Less desirable .

Speaker 1 17:11

Okay , I don't really even know how to pause , do I ? We just so let's move on to now . I can't even talk . Okay , delete that , let's move on to . Well , what would you say are some parts of your job that are less desirable ?

Speaker 2 17:31

I think I talked about this a little earlier . But sitting , lots of sitting , lots of sitting and listening . Can you stand it might be a little awkward ? And lots of note writing , lots of documentation , tony , don't do it . Don't do it Now .

Speaker 2 17:44

In all seriousness , those are some of the negative things , but there's ways around it . So , for example , I became a specialized in child and adolescent psychology and , as a consequence , a lot of my therapy sessions were actually out in the field . I did some home-based work as well . So I'm playing on the monkey bars and what's that thing called the wheel go round , I don't know . It's the thing that you push . That's a circle and you jump on it , get all dizzy . Great fun times for doing therapy and yeah , so , in order , you know you're playing on the floor if you're working with kids and making all kinds of fun little stories out of dolls and animals and figurines and action characters .

Speaker 2 18:14

So there's ways to make it where you're not just sitting and listening , and make it . Make it right for you , but for me , that's what I needed . I needed to be a little bit more active . And another way to make it work that way is in the military . You're constantly moving , so there's embedded positions and a lot of times those embedded positions are with special forces or they have unique missions of themselves , and that's another way to really stay active . I remember when I was in Boston , they have the global psychiatry unit and a lot of times those people were working with refugee camps or different areas across the globe , and that's another way that you can do the work without just sitting . So , even though I'm half serious , but I'm also joking , because there's not just that , obviously you can do other things and make it work for you , but I do think that it's important that people recognize yeah , there's administrative parts to it too , like documentation . If you didn't document it , it didn't happen . And yeah , those parts are not as much fun .

Speaker 1 19:04

I think it's a good lesson for a lot of different career fields too . I remember I recently got put into a position of a more administrative role and I initially got in there and I was like I'm not gonna have any fun because I enjoy working with the people and working with the flight and my drive is people , not necessarily the paperwork , even though I am admin by nature . But I found me getting up and getting away from my desk and going and talking to the senior enlisted leaders or the commanders or whatever to accomplish the task . So I'm still doing the thing I'm supposed to , but it being an email versus walking and getting out , kind of fulfilled the need of me needing the social interaction . But I was still getting stuff done .

Speaker 1 19:34

So kind of tweaking things to fit you , I think is a pretty good lesson . Just because it's supposed to be one way . Maybe you can find a different way to do it , Maybe you can meet people somewhere or transitioning , working with kids , like you mentioned . So that's good stuff . I want to touch on another aspect of the AFSC . So to continue to round out the AFSC and really learn about it you started to touch on some of it , but just want to see if there's anything else . What are some of the more unique opportunities that your career field presents that people might not know about ?

Speaker 2 20:02

Unique opportunities . So are we talking in the military , outside of the military , or both ?

Speaker 1 20:07

Yeah , in the military , like going to school or special assignments deployments .

Speaker 2 20:12

Well , there you go . So all of the above that's true , you know , I don't know . You can deploy as a civilian and obviously , like I said , you can do the refugee camps and you can do some work like that . But deployment is a challenge , a sacrifice and also very rewarding . So that's definitely unique to the military .

Speaker 2 20:28

For myself , I've spent the past 12 years of my career overseas , so I'm a bit of an expat , if you will , and I don't know if I could have traveled the world the way I do in any civilian psychology position . They do have GS civilian psychology positions . They have some contract , but it's possible , but it's lovely just to be able to do that , to just travel and see the world . The other thing is there's a bunch of opportunities for school and specialization and so for me to do that fellowship with a child and adolescents , to do that I was deployed actually at the time , interviewing at various civilian schools to find the right fit for me . I ended up choosing Harvard and MGH because they had a pediatric neuropsychology unit and that was part of my interest was autism at that time and to be accepted into those kinds of programs . I can tell you I'm not that smart .

Speaker 2 21:17

There's no way I would probably have gotten in there if it weren't for this military opportunity . They have all kinds of great things like that that are little nuggets , that kind of keep you going , and it's been fabulous , it's been a great ride .

Speaker 1 21:28

That's good stuff . I had a previous commander . She had a top secret as a psychologist and she was I don't know if she's embedded or the exact- position she was in but she worked with Sierra or SpecOps or someone and she had that top secret so she could hear the things being read in . Are there a lot of those opportunities ? It's pretty rare to be able to be attached to the SpecOps or anything else that's like that .

Speaker 2 21:48

Those opportunities are actually growing . So there's probably more of those opportunities than there are of the command , leadership or clinic opportunities . Now , actually because the Air Force is really pushing for that operational support team model where , instead of people coming to the clinics , we're out there with them . We understand their jobs , we understand what they're doing and we're dealing with the same things stressors that they're dealing with . Really , those types of opportunities are increasing , not diminishing . And yes , sierra psychology that's certainly a cool job . I've known a few Sierra psychologists and , yeah , if that was your dream , you could specialize in that . Also Aviation psychologists different ones , different avenues that you could go down depending upon your interests .

Speaker 1 22:26

I think that's cool to highlight , because I really want to show the different things and those unique opportunities . I'm not sure where you're gonna go elsewhere to find things that are similar to that , so those all sound like some really cool opportunities . Next question is what are some things about your job that most people don't understand ?

Speaker 2 22:43

I think some of that is confidentiality . I think a lot of people want to come to psychologists . We really are quite private . I come home and don't talk to my significant other or my family , and so to that level I tell my patients always at the informed consent at the beginning when I see you outside of here I'm going to pretend like I don't know you . I tell them you know you're more than welcome to say hi to me . You can wave at me and of course I'm not gonna , you know , give you the hand and pretend like I don't know you . At that point I'll engage with you .

Speaker 2 23:14

But we're gonna do whatever the comfort level of that patient is and our job is to protect that patient too . And so , particularly in the military , I think , a lot of times supervisors or leaders , they want information and we can't give them that information . We just can't . If that patient is not signing a release , then our job is to protect that patient and unless it's imminent and danger to self or others , or if it's a matter of abuse , then we are gonna keep and protect that privacy of that individual .

Speaker 2 23:39

And sometimes people get mad at us and sometimes , trust me , like we want to share what's going on with that individual because it might actually help that individual but that individual , for whatever reason , doesn't want that , or maybe now is not that time , and so that can be quite frustrating , I think , from folks on the outside . They don't understand . You know , I think it's much easier to understand okay , it's the chaplain , that you know he or she is not gonna say anything . But with us it's not 100% . You know there's those limits , but for the most part we are gonna attempt to protect our clients and I think that piece is kind of not very well understood .

Speaker 1 24:08

So I got a few questions to piggyback that I just saw recently a TikTok or a roll or a reel or whatnot Geez , I'm getting old that talked about the common miss behind . I don't remember if it was a social worker or you know what type of what level of mental health it was , but it was interesting because they were listing some of these things , so I'll mention them and see what your thoughts are . They said like I'm not there to tell you what to do , I'm not there to berate you , and there's a few different things like that where they feel like they're gonna be told , like how to fix their lives and things like that . But really you're looking for the member to guide the discussion , guide the treatment , for lack of a better word , right ?

Speaker 2 24:44

Correct , yeah , so it needs to come from within the individual , otherwise it's not really gonna stick .

Speaker 1 24:48

Yeah , so really it's not a one direction conversation , truly two ways in trying to work on that . And if it were one way , maybe almost from them trying to work on the things that they need to , it's not gonna be berating them , which kind of leads into this next question . So I guess I'll just ask this to help people understand

Understanding the Mental Health Journey

Speaker 1 25:03

. So this is can you help us understand the overall process to ease that initial hesitation or confusion when starting a mental health journey ? How does it start ? What's the overall kind of process look like for someone to go through that journey ?

Speaker 2 25:13

Sure thing , yeah , it's . It is complicated , especially in the military . In this day and age . We have so many resources that it's a bit information overload and now people don't know where to go , what they need when they need it . It's a little bit too much .

Speaker 2 25:25

So we've done a great , I think , a method of reducing that confusion here by using a model called Continuum of Care , and it is literally like a hand out , like a flyer for people to talk about . Okay , if you're having these low levels of distress , these are the resources that you can use . And as you get more and more and more levels of distress like these are the other resources that you should go to . And I think , because people are just so overwhelmed with whatever all the stuff that's around , they just don't know where to go . The easy button is okay , I'm going to go to the mental health clinic and we're happy to see them . But actually there's lots and lots of different kinds of resources . So I think when someone's hesitant , maybe about career impact , for example , or the stigma although we say that there's no stigma , there can be right , there can be some factors a bit then an easy way to get there is maybe don't start at the top right Like have you tried these other avenues , these other non-medical counseling interventions ? So an example in the military we have military one source and I don't think people understand how fantastic of a resource military one source is . The issue is that whenever I heard the commercials or saw the postings from military one source , it's like crisis . If you're in crisis , we're open 24-7 . And I was like well , I don't have a crisis , I just got a parking ticket and it kind of ticked me off today and I want to vent to somebody and I don't have anyone here , whatever it might be , and actually it's not for crisis like in that . I mean it is for crisis but it doesn't just have to be for crisis .

Speaker 2 26:43

And I think people I hope more and more people understand that . You know , if you go on their website and it's literally 24-7 , you can either use their chat or you can call them and their referral process does take a bit of time . They take maybe about an hour or close to asking the different questions , making sure that they're the most appropriate resource for you . But it's fantastic and the nice thing about it is a lot of it's virtual , so you can either just have a phone conversation or the video chat in the comfort of your own home or wherever you want it to be , and so because of that it really , I think , really does reduce stigma because nobody has to know , right , it's a completely separate level . I'm sure they document somehow , but it's not in the medical chart by any means , and those kinds of resources , I think , are really amazing and they're not as scary , so it's not as intimidating to approach .

Speaker 2 27:26

Other ones that are kind of at that lower level , like the Marriage and Family Life counselors . Of course the chaplain can be any level right , but they're kind of an easy one to go to . But unfortunately sometimes people get nervous . We talked about that spirituality thing where they're like oh , they're going to start talking to me and being prescriptive when you know no , they're trained , they're going to listen to you too .

Speaker 2 27:43

But lots of different resources , primary-care , behavioral health is what we have . So if you just go into your regular medical doctor and you're asking for an appointment with a mental health person , they can do some quick interventions and prescriptions . So all of that can happen before even getting to the level of , ok , we're going to go to the hospital or we're going to go to the mental health clinic . Now , if you do start at the hospital or the mental health clinic , that's fine too , and it doesn't mean completely detrimental to the career , right .

Speaker 2 28:08

That's usually when folks don't get better , you know , unfortunately , if they require a lot of specialty care , then yes , it might mean medical retirement from the military or for their job or something , but they're not functioning at their job , right . That's the whole . Mental health disorder is when you have occupational or social impact and lots of us might be really bummed about different maybe we had a relationship struggles or financial struggles that doesn't mean we have a mental health disorder . It might just mean that we're having some stressors in our lives and we need some help to get through them . But if it reaches mental health diagnosis , then yeah , it may mean some changes that we need to make occupationally or socially .

Speaker 1 28:42

Yeah , yeah . One thing we've talked about on this show here is trying to go down and use words , because words are important . So using the word mental fitness as an ongoing thing you're working on , and so that's one thing I want the listeners to hear and I'll probably say it in all the episodes I can squeeze it into because I just find it so important . You know , I use the example . Would you ever go to the gym and jump on the treadmill once and you're like I'm good , never going to run ever again ? Like no , you go and you do your cardio two or three times a week and you have that ongoing routine and you're taking care of your body , but for some reason , we haven't quite gotten over the stigma or whatever it is where you can have an ongoing thing for mental health , like why are you waiting for it to get to rock bottom , to get to mental health , to get to crisis ?

Speaker 1 29:20

As we mentioned , it should be ongoing , where you're offloading the smaller things , the parking tickets that are building up and frustrating you , and so I hope , as this podcast goes on , we can continue to talk about that , where it should be .

Speaker 1 29:29

The same way , if someone asks you what you're doing in the gym . You know people openly tell them all there I'm doing three by 10 at this weight and it's this discussion on . You know how they're using their legs or arms or whatnot , but no one I mean not to me too often I've ever heard anybody talk about a new yoga routine or a new breathing technique or something like that so openly and so hopefully we can transition for you know how we talk about taking care of our physical body to taking care of our mental body and not allowing it to get to that worst case scenario . That's really good stuff . So next question , kind of talking about the stigma and a good transition is where do you think the negative stigma comes from , both in society and , more specifically , the military , like kind of in both , but it's probably more pronounced , I would think , in the military . What are your thoughts on the stigma in both society and the military ?

Speaker 2 30:15

Yeah , so in the military , as I said , there can be times when we have to put someone on what's called a profile , so that means that they may not be able to do their full job or maybe we don't need . We need them not to go TDY or deploy right now and we don't want them carrying a gun right now , right . So there's that . And now the good thing is it's kind of a generic form that the commander sees , but oftentimes people start asking questions and when the member is going to weekly appointments there's questions , and then they feel kind of in this hard place , like now I have to tell my supervisor because I'm gone to a medical appointment every week and it's hard . So then you know , people may or may not judge or may be afraid about what they should be saying around you . The other military impact , of course , is if we have people in specialty units or if they're aviation or something along special forces or security forces for that matter , then there can be certain types of diagnoses that would impact their ability to function in those jobs , and so we may need to say , hey , you can't do your full job right now and unfortunately , if that continues for about a year , then they start looking and saying , hey , can this person really do this job if they've been down for that long ? And so , in that regard , sure there could be some career impact

Seeking Mental Health in Military/Civilian

Speaker 2 31:32

.

Speaker 2 31:32

I think in the civilian world and the military , one of the hesitations to coming to seek mental health is the cultural kind of background and whatever people's development , what they were exposed to . So a lot of times people are coming from families where they grew up in a different generation and maybe they don't really believe in this whole mental health stuff and maybe you should just suck it up and deal with your problems and life goes on , stop crying or whatever it is that they think . So it's a shift in generational thinking and I think that can be very challenging for some people in some cultures and some upbringings to say , hey , I'm going to do this , and that can be a real strong deterrence , and that you see , amongst peer groups too . So if that , that that's it , thank you , thank you , thank you , thank you , thank you , thank you , thank you , thank you , thank you , thank you , thank you . Work environment or that peer group is like man , you don't go to mental health . You know that can certainly make it hard for someone to go .

Speaker 1 32:19

So we've talked about the member . I'm curious your thoughts If we shift this to supervisors and leadership positions . What can supervisors and leaderships do to kind of clear out some of this and make it a better environment for the members ?

Speaker 2 32:33

Yeah , it's hard because if someone does therapy is typically weekly appointments or every other week , at first at least , and they don't know if their members being honest or not . So they need to trust their people and they can just be caring and concerned and say , hey , my door is open , if you need to talk about something , I'm here to listen . They can make it open and available for that member to come to them . But they certainly should not be pushing and they should be making sure that those that are supervising and those smaller units are not pushing the person to disclose anything that's private to them unless they want to . So just kind of being willing to listen .

Speaker 2 33:11

And sometimes you know you don't need to treat people differently just because they're going to mental . Sometimes you know the more you do that , the more it makes it a little bit more awkward . And just do your regular day to day stuff that you should be doing with anybody , not just with somebody who has a mental health issue like check in with your people , make sure that they're okay , is there stuff that's going on at work that's frustrating them , or is there ways that you can make it better for them because of whatever they have going in their life . So I don't know that it's necessarily unique to someone seeking mental health or just the right thing to do .

Speaker 1 33:35

Yeah , that's interesting . I saw or heard there was a commander . This is like second third . You know word of mouth , so I don't know all the details , but I guess on his calendar he had put , like he was having , you know , his appointment at mental health or however it was listed on the calendar and he would post it on his door or whatever it was , to show the unit where he was at certain times . And I guess that was his way of showing people that it's normal you can go , and so I thought that was kind of a cool concept of trying to get past this barrier of being the commander and say I'm going to meet with my therapist , and so it said therapist or whatever the exact verbiage was . Do you think that's helpful to try to clear that up a little bit ?

Speaker 2 34:08

Can be , but what we don't need is a whole bunch of people using it as a get out of work . That's a good point . Pop on over to mental health . No , I mean sure , I think being open about your own experiences with mental health , that is definitely beneficial . Yeah .

Speaker 1 34:21

So as a supervisor because , like you had said , everyone talks I've been in a few different career fields , like my first career field , air traffic control . There's a lot of things that go around . When you go to Nick , even if it's for routine things you took cough medicine , like people are still like , oh , they're just trying to get out of work , they're trying to do this , they don't , you know , they're letting down the team and all these things . As a supervisor of a member that's going and people are trying to poke around and things like that , how can you , you know , clear the air and not make it weird , because you're saying like , don't make it weird , don't ostracize , ostracize anybody . But how do you handle that in a position where you're kind of stuck in the middle of , you know , protecting them but not making it awkward ?

Speaker 2 34:52

Yeah , I mean , I think you still need to hold people accountable , right ? So most of us are adults and they're willing to sacrifice their lives to be here . So , keeping that in mind , I think that's a personal one on one conversation that a supervisor can have if they're concerned that this person is missing a lot of time and they might be able to say , hey , I get it , you got some medical appointments we're happy to support . Is there a way we can work around this time or that time , given shifts and like I said before . Otherwise , in terms of out in the open , I think , yeah , talking about it like it's any other I think you said it well like cough medicine or whatever else that you need to .

Speaker 2 35:21

It's just it's not , it's not like I don't know , it's like anybody could go . You know , it's not something that means that there's something wrong with this person , necessarily . So I think , making it acceptable , making it not an issue , and not really highlighting it or not highlighting it or not highlighting it , I guess either way . I think it's important , of course , that we talk about no suicides and healthy behaviors and zero tolerance and those types of things , and that should continue to be echoed . But , as far as you know , making it sounds like , okay , you know , go to mental health , it's perfectly fine . I mean , yeah , it is . So we don't need to always share that piece of it Like it's fine . Like do we say , go to your doctor , it's perfectly fine to get your cough medicine .

Speaker 1 36:00

You know , I don't know that makes sense . So the podcast one of the Purposes of it is to educate people if they wanted to cross train or come in . So what's some of the most important personality traits or strengths someone might need in this particular career field ?

Speaker 2 36:16

I think it's important to be humble and To be an active listener . If you have those things naturally , then it helps , because what you're not doing is you're not telling people as we pointed out earlier what to do . It's not prescriptive . It's hearing people out , meeting them where they're at and working with them to help elicit ideas and to inspire them . So if you have those kinds of natural traits to be a good listener , to want to help people but not overly pushy about it I think that you're in a really good place to become a psychologist .

Speaker 2 36:43

And this may be my bias , but I think if you have an inquisitive mind and you really want to understand why does that people think the way they do , how it is that they think the way they do , why did they make that choice ? Because you might be scratching your head , me like what . I don't get this person and I think like this all the time . I'm thinking well , I think back to my days of Hegel or Kant or Hume is and do we maybe like Is it subjective or is it objective ? What are we learning ? Is this real ? Where does it start ? Where does it stop ? I think , therefore , I am , you know .

Speaker 2 37:10

I mean greater good all those types of things that , to me , was essential to becoming a psychologist is that thirst for knowledge and understanding . So those are two qualities that I would say are very helpful . More Physical , I kind of realistic if someone's interested in it , they should . They should probably volunteer somehow in the field , because I had one person , for example , I was supervising and they wanted to become a social worker and that you can either become a social one , you can do clinical care , but there's lots of other types of helping Fields out there , and that person did a rotation in the clinic and they were like nope , this is not for me , and then they went into that other realm . So , like in psychology , we have industrial , organizational psychology and , like we pointed out , serious .

Speaker 2 37:48

I called just all kinds of different avenues , and so maybe you find that being a clinical psychologist in that regard isn't your . Is it right , the right fit ? But you don't really know that until you do it , and so that's why it's really important . I think I volunteered at a state mental health hospital and , like I said , I worked in a rehabilitation place for a couple years before I decided to go down this route . I think that's really important to figure out . Is this something that you really want to do ? Get your feet wet first .

Speaker 1 38:10

That makes sense . So , without hearing the same things we hear from most commanders calls , what are some actions you'd recommend for a person that's listening right now to take and use today , this week , this month ? Actionable things right now have hope .

Speaker 2 38:22

Have hope . Yeah , time heals all wounds . Time time helps and Obviously , you know it's . It's a struggle when you're feeling not the greatest and you don't want to leave your room . Maybe you're get out there , but that's unfortunately , that's exactly what you got to do . But there's ways to do it right start small and then go big .

Speaker 2 38:40

So yesterday was one of those days for me . I'm just stressed and I'm exhausted . I've got so much going on and I haven't been to the gym in quite some time . So I said to myself you know what ? I'm gonna go for just 20 minutes and I'm gonna sit on that recumbent bike and I'm read my book . And this is me time . And that's what I did . And you know , it's not about like the calories burned or how much muscle I'm building at that point . At that point it's the beginning stages of a habit and it's making sure an old habit doesn't drop off , an old healthy habit . So I think that's important too . A lot of times we get to the new year and we have all of these new year's resolutions and we start so high we're gonna do this , that and the other , and it's just , it's a realistic like maybe we can do baby steps you know to get there , and I think that's really important if people just start small little things at first and then it'll grow from there . Have faith .

Speaker 1 39:19

Have faith , have hope . Those are both really good things to hear . So I'm gonna try to summarize a little bit . We heard today about a wonderful career field . Sounds like a lot of great opportunities , being embedded in different positions , being connected to the mission via deployment or AFSOC or other Different specialties like seer . We heard about sitting a little bit today Maybe sitting a little too long to try to find some creative ways or maybe going down different paths to help with that . Really talked about a lot of different tools and techniques to try to work through .

Speaker 1 39:45

I think one of the biggest things that I pulled from this particular one was that that spectrum of care or spectrum of need , trying to make sure you're taking care of things at the lowest possible level , which we hear that a lot in the military . So I don't want it to sound like another thing that said , but it really is the level of what you need at that particular time . And there's spectrums in all of life . There's so much balance in life . You don't always need the bazooka for every solution . Sometimes you know it's a much smaller weapon .

Speaker 1 40:08

I don't know why I just went to weapons , but you just have to find the correct tool . I mean same way . I guess I should have used tools a better example . So you're working on the car or things like that and you're going to the toolbox to grab some for the car , you have to find the right tool . Even if you use the hammer , it might work at some point , but it's probably way too much for something that requires a screwdriver or something else to find in the right fit . I think is super important . So that kind of summarizes some of the main points . We talked about a lot of different things . I really want to encourage listeners to share their thoughts or questions , reach out , post any questions and then I wanted to pass it over to you for final words of wisdom .

Speaker 2 40:40

Final words of wisdom . Well , first off , thank you very much for having me here today . It's been a pleasure , absolutely

Hierarchy of Needs and Meaningful Life

Speaker 2 40:44

. I don't know if I have , like I said , I'm actually not wise , remember , I know nothing , but I think you know , one of the best concepts that I use in my life is man cannot live on bread alone . And I say that in the sense that there's a level of needs , a hierarchy of needs , and , yes , we do need food , we do need shelter and we need loved ones . But as you go up that hierarchy , you need , you need lots of things , and a Lot of that might be internal and a lot of that might be external , and you got to figure out what that is for you . But as long as you make life meaningful and you get your basic needs covered , I think good things can can really start to happen as long as you have faith .

Speaker 1 41:23

That is a good way to end it . Thanks for coming on the show . Thank you everyone to listening to AFSCs one through nine . Remember , exploring different career fields is an important step and finding the right path for you . Join us next time as we continue to explore different career paths and the opportunities that they offer . If you have any questions or want to share your own career story , please let me know . We'll see you next time .