The Connection of Workplace Culture and Mental Wellness with Shannon Sutton

Exploring the intricate dance of organizational culture and mental health, Shannon Sutton joins me for a conversation that's both enlightening and deeply personal. Together, we dissect the Culture Lotus Framework—a model for nurturing a vibrant workplace, with petals representing clarity, expectation, competency, empowerment, fortification, and assessment. Drawing from the collective wisdom of industry giants, we reflect on aligning values with goals, fostering competencies, and the transformative power of empowerment. Peppered with anecdotes from breakfast cereal preferences to impactful books, we set the groundwork for a profound discourse on psychological safety and crafting a workspace that's as nurturing as it is productive.

As we venture through the nuances of leadership, the art of transparency, and the shaping of an organization’s ethos, my own journey from anger to empathy underscores the conversation. We touch upon the Socratic method’s role in effective communication and the essential practice of assessment in developing the next generation of leaders. Our dialogue echoes the significance of every role, from support personnel to high-profile units, in the grand scheme of military operations and beyond. It’s a candid look at personal growth, the delicate balance of work-life harmony, and the rituals that bond us together in pursuit of a shared vision.

In our final moments, we confront the often-overlooked topic of mental health in the workplace, advocating for its normalization and the elimination of existing stigmas. I share insights into how daily mindfulness practices can bolster resilience, and we discuss the need for mental fitness to be given the same priority and resources as physical health. As we close, Shannon and I reflect on the power of visualizing mission and vision, leaving our devoted audience with a heartfelt thanks for joining us on this transformative journey through the landscape of workplace culture and mental health.

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Chapters

• 0:56 Organizational Culture
• 7:35 Developing a Culture Lotus Framework
• 18:23 Developing Organizational Culture for Success
• 33:53 Building a Positive Work Culture
• 46:58 Leadership, Transparency, and Mental Fitness
• 57:26 Mental Health and Workplace Culture Trends
• 1:05:59 Transforming Perspectives on Mental Health
• 1:12:41 Visualizing Mission and Vision

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:56

Hi, I'm your host, nate Shearer. Welcome to the show. This is MindForce, the podcast for love, life and learning, where your mind matters. Today I'm broadcasting from the lovely Killeen, texas, from a hotel room, so I don't have a cool green screen, don't mind anything behind me. I tried to make it look as good as it could. So that's that. Today we have Shannon Sutton in the house. I worked on a project with him, working on some culture for the unit, so I was trying to find some more creative topics to go into mental health and mental fitness and I was trying to think of what's something that really impacts people and kind of dawned on me. Work, of course. Right, we're at work for the majority of the day, probably more there than anywhere else Once you minus the sleep at home. So work is a big influence on your life, so we should have some conversations about it and some tips and tricks to try to make things better. So welcome to the show, shannon.

Speaker 2: 1:53

Hey, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk about organizational culture with you. Psychological safety, mental health in general All of these things are passions of mine, and so I'm ready to get into it.

Speaker 1: 2:07

Awesome. So we got to start with the easy questions. Get us warmed up, limbered. So who are you, what do you do and why do you do it?

Speaker 2: 2:18

Yeah, so again, I'm Shannon Sutton and I would say that I am a lover of life, I'm an organizational culturist and strategist, I'm a coach, I am a speaker and I'm also an analyst by trade. Coach, I am a speaker and I am also an analyst by trade. I'm also the co-founder of Project Nomad, which is a group of volunteer airmen who have set out to cultivate organizational cultures across the Air Force and the Space Force through systems thinking, design thinking, so people can thrive.

Speaker 1: 2:49

Yeah, and I want to give a shout out to Project Nomad, just because they're getting out and trying to do things and, like Shannon said, volunteering. I think that's such a powerful thing because there's so many people in our units that are like I don't like this, I wish it were, change all these things, but not taking the action to go out and do it. So, even though it might not be perfect they can't reach the whole world, all these different things just the attempt of trying getting out, setting things up, getting classes, getting people educated and things like that is a huge step. So, if you do have any gripes or complaints about work, take the energy that you're putting into that to try to reach out and make things better. It's one thing to identify what's wrong or or complain about it, but a completely different thing to get out there and and try and get after it. So that's awesome. Thanks for doing that and thanks for all the volunteers.

Speaker 1: 3:37

We're going to move into the interview, so we're going to start off with a quick question for myself. What do you have, Shannon?

Speaker 2: 3:45

Oh, one of the things that I always like to ask people. It's actually one of two things. I either ask what's your favorite cereal, so I'll ask you that, but if I get another question, I'm going to ask what book are you reading right now?

Speaker 1: 3:58

Okay, yeah, so favorite cereal, that's a tough one. It would probably be Cinnamon Toast Crunch. That's a tough one because I really like to flip back and forth based on what I'm like used to or missing out on. So I like Cinnamon Toast Crunch and then Fruity Pebbles, kind of to alter that. So the fruity or the sugar and cinnamon are kind of the two different profiles of them back and forth.

Speaker 1: 4:25

And right now I'm reading all sorts of things. I wish it were more interesting, but a lot of joint publications. I'm in my fellowship for AFSOC, so I'm reading all sorts of things. I wish it were more interesting, but a lot of joint publications. I'm in my fellowship for AFSOC, so I'm really trying to absorb and try and learn everything I can for this 12 months, because that's my job for this last summer to this upcoming summer. So a great year of learning everything about medical, medical capabilities and how soft fits into that picture. So super exciting. How soft fits into that picture. So super exciting.

Speaker 1: 4:52

A lot of joint pubs 4.04 and 5.0, a bunch of fun joint pubs, but not too exciting. Most of the time I'm reading them or having PDF read them to me so I can make my way through them, but it's good stuff. So we're going to move on, open up to Shannon. So I'm going to give you the floor and allow you to kind of work through. I don't know if you want to start with Project Nomad and kind of work your way to the culture lotus.

Speaker 2: 5:21

Yeah, so we'll get there. But to start with, I have to talk about what Project Nomad is in general. You know, I kind of said our purpose statement earlier, but we have three fronts that we work on. The first front that we work on is assess. So we have a technique that we use called culture mapping, and also using social network analysis and overlaying those two to assess all the way down to the underlying beliefs of the organization. So it's more than climate. Climate is how people feel about the organization, but what is the writing on the wall? How do we do things around here and why do we do them that way? And so we get after that through the assess piece.

Speaker 2: 6:04

The other piece where I primarily lie is in the design piece. Now, I am a firm believer that organizational culture is a thing that we can design and draw a roadmap to get to it, and I believe this because I have done it multiple times in organizations that I have led all the way from small teams all the way up to large units. I've been able to do this, and it's through the technique that we'll talk about in a minute, through the model that we use and we designed in Project Nomad called the Culture Lotus. And then the third front that we work on is management, and that's basically to say that if we go into a unit, a commander asks to go in, we will assess the organization. If they want, we'll do a workshop and we'll help them design the culture that they want. And then we don't leave them. And we're all volunteers, right, we all have families, we all have day jobs, but we'll take time out and we'll talk to these leaders at any time, day or night. We've got representatives around the globe, so if they want to contact one of us, they can, and we'll walk them through these change steps so that they can get some vector and some objective third-party opinion on the steps that they're taking. We're happy to do that. And then that leads us into the Culture Lotus, when we look at that design front and where I am in Project Nomad Lotus, when we look at that design front and where I am in Project Nomad. And the Culture Lotus is something that we came up with and there are tons of tools packed into it, tons of study, tons of writings and readings, things from Peter Drucker all the way to Edgar Schein and Seth Godin a huge fan of Melissa Daimler as well, as well as Patrick Lencioni. He's my favorite author. I have all of his books. You know Dan Pink is great as well. So all of these concepts coming together. I forgot to mention Dave Logan because his concepts about tribal leadership are mixed in there as well. But all of these things come together in this culture, lotus, and what we got it down to were six petals, and these six petals are clarity, expectation, competency, empowerment, fortification and assessment, and the short of it is that clarity comes down to purpose and vision.

Speaker 2: 8:27

Now, in the Air Force in particular, military units, our mission is given to us, but the mission is what we do when we get to work. It's the car that we drive down the road. It doesn't really have inherently a purpose in it unless someone is uber patriotic, and what we see is that that's not necessarily the case across the Air Force. People aren't always uber patriotic. Now I hope that when people stay in longer and longer, they become more and more patriotic. I know I did, but what we see is that people need purpose. They need something that connects them from waking up and getting out of bed to get to work, to do that mission. What is that purpose? And so that's part of clarity. The other part of the clarity is something that falls right within mission command. We look at AFDP 1-1,. The Air Force is pushing mission command, and rightfully so, because the circle in the center that describes centralized command, distributed control and decentralized execution, around that red circle says clear commander's intent. And if you don't give vision as a commander, you haven't told your people where you want them to go. And if you don't tell them what that destination is, they're going to assume what it is go. And if you don't tell them what that destination is, they're going to assume what it is themselves. And if you've got a 300 person unit, you're going to have 300 different destinations that people are headed towards. And so we got to give them that clarity.

Speaker 2: 10:03

And then the next pedal, expectation. It comes down to values. Right, values is the first part of expectation. Like, what do we actually care about? Now? The Air Force has given us core values, but it's really about asking the question how do those core values translate in the particular job or the particular mission that my unit is doing? Yeah, you know, integrity first, service before self, excellence in all we do. Those are great values. How does it apply to a soft unit, how does it apply to a medical unit? How does it apply to an intel unit? That may look a little different, and probably so, and probably rightfully so.

Speaker 2: 10:45

And then the other part of expectation is goals. You told me where I'm going, commander. Now give me some broad steps on how to get there right. I need that clarity, I need that clear Commander's intent Now. From there we get into some intriguing conversations that we could linger on for a long time. And I'm going to go through the Lotus. I'm not going to linger there and I can say it has to do with distributed control and decentralized execution and the fact that the Little Brown Book tells senior NCOs to translate commander's visions into objectives and tasks for airmen to accomplish. And so the commander has to upfront, the leader has to upfront, give those clear goals that are broad enough for their senior NCOs to translate them and turn them into objectives and tasks for the airman to accomplish to move the unit forward.

Speaker 2: 11:38

And then that takes us to competency. And when we talk about competency, we really talk about competency modeling. Right, we look at training, education, development and certification, training being that baseline knowledge and skill set that airmen need to accomplish their job. Um, so it's the like I said, the bare minimum, right. And then there's education, knowledge that goes on top of that, training to make them smarter about their job, and then development. When we talk about development, this excites me, right, and you can probably hear it in my voice I talk, I say development, I get a little bit excited, because development is where we start talking about the Air Force's foundational competencies and the airman leadership qualities.

Speaker 2: 12:20

Development takes a long time. Development has to do with soft skills a lot more than it does with hard skills. How well does this airman communicate and how do I teach them to communicate better? How strong is this airman's emotional intelligence and how do I teach them to be aware of themselves, to manage themselves, to be aware of their social settings and to manage their relationships the best that they possibly can? This is hard right, and that is development, and it takes a while.

Speaker 2: 12:52

And then certification is just. You know why we all go to college is to get it on a piece of paper so we can show someone else that we went to college. And then, on the other side of that, if we were to do a matrix of this, we would see something called KSAO, which is knowledge, skills, abilities and other characteristics. These are the things that we're training to, educating to developing to and certifying, and so we can draw that matrix for any position in any organization and just fill out that matrix and say, okay, this is where we're going to go. So that's competency in a nutshell and you have to have that for every single position If you want to do it really well. You want to be thorough, every single position, so that the position is then aligning with the commander's intent. And then you write a duty description off of that and you give that airman clear guidance on what they're supposed to do to go towards the commander's intent.

Speaker 2: 13:49

And that's a great transition into the fourth one, which is my favorite pedal. It's empowerment. And I view empowerment as having four pillars. The first pillar of empowerment is to clearly define the sphere of risk ownership. Now, from my perspective, from what I've learned in the Air Force, is only one person in any Air Force unit owns risk and that's the commander. And then that commander delegates that risk to other people, and some people he delegates risk to, like flight commanders, and they can delegate it even farther. He may delegate some to the SEL and that SEL can delegate to the senior NCOs, but the owner of the risk is the commander. To the senior NCOs. Right, but the owner of the risk is the commander.

Speaker 2: 14:36

So when it starts to trickle down like that, it gets fuzzier and more ambiguous, unless we take an intention to defining the sphere of risk ownership for each person down the chain of command. And that comes through duty descriptions, but it also comes with saying yeah, here's what you need to do, but here's what I'm also okay with you making decisions about. And once we define that, then what we have to outline for them are these things that in Project Nomad we call tenets. Tenets is synonymous with principles. For us, we use it synonymously also with behaviors.

Speaker 2: 15:08

How do I want you to behave with behaviors? How do I want you to behave? Behaviors? As Melissa Daimler says, they start with the word we and they are single barreled, so they're a single action. We thoroughly and decisively communicate right, and that's double barreled. I even messed it up then. Right, but we decisively communicate with each other, right? That could be a behavior. So it's saying when you're in your sphere of risk ownership, this is how I want you to act and behave. Now, this is important as we talk about mental health as well.

Speaker 2: 15:37

Because when we want to become a leader, there are really three steps to becoming a leader. The first is leading yourself, and to lead yourself you have to know what your personal values are not what you were taught your personal values are, but what your personal values actually are and then look objectively at whether or not your actions and behaviors day to day are in alignment with those personal values, because if they're not, you're going to experience cognitive dissonance. If they're not, you're going to experience stress, and the same thing's going to happen at work that if we don't tell our airmen this is how I want you to behave, specifically in our unit, then there's going to be some dissonance that occurs. So, pillar one clearly define the sphere of risk ownership. Pillar two outline the expected behaviors. Pillar three give them deliberate autonomy. You told them where they're going to operate and you told them how you want them to behave in that. Now let them go. And, by the way, we've already talked about competency, this. So they've got the competency to do it. Let them go.

Speaker 2: 16:48

And then it leaves one thing, only one thing that a leader has to do Hold their airmen compassionately accountable. And I say compassionately accountable because yelling and screaming and getting angry and getting emotionally attached to what's happening in the mission does us no good. It clouds and fogs our decision-making ability when we allow that to happen. To hold someone compassionately accountable means that we have to go to the root of the word discipline, which means to teach or to learn, and if we treat all of our airmen like students of the craft students that are going to replace us, then now we take a compassionate approach and we start to grow them, we cultivate them to be better than we ever were, and in these trying times, in these times when we're looking at peer adversaries and pacing threats, that's what we need, and so that's empowerment.

Speaker 1: 17:49

In a nutshell Define the sphere of risk ownership, outline the expected behaviors, give them deliberate autonomy and then hold them compassionately accountable examples, a story that you could tell, being you know a longtime supervisor, where you know someone did do something that initially caused you know that rage or that stress or you know your blood pressure to raise a little bit and you know, did you handle it? Well, handle it, you know, did you fix it later? Or do you have any stories that you know aren't going to impact anybody if they're heard or anything? But I like to hear practical stories instead of hypotheticals. Do you have any of those? Well?

Speaker 2: 18:39

yeah, I mean, there are tons of examples that happen probably every single day and honestly, I've got to go on a tangent here, if I may. I've got to say that in my personal journey which is probably a long, another hour-long episode I had anger issues early in my career and then I sought counseling. I sought therapy for that. I self-identified and sought that counseling. I went from an angry person to um, at least I can express some empathy now. Um, but yeah, day to day, we we see it.

Speaker 2: 19:21

Um, a quick example that that just happened, right, um, there was a very good thing that happened to one of our airmen in our unit, uh, over the last week. A very good thing that happened to one of our airmen in our unit over the last week, and it was something that the triad should have been engaged in. Right, they should have known about it. They should have approached it and told that airman congratulations and made a big deal out of it to celebrate that time with that airman. But the flight chief dropped the ball. The flight chief did not let us know about it.

Speaker 2: 19:52

And so the initial there's a visceral reaction to that right, like, oh, I missed that opportunity or oh, I wanted to be there for that airman, but instead you take that opportunity to pull the flight chief aside and say, hey, what was what was going on? And you know how could we do it better in the future? This is my commander likes to talk about rubber and glass balls, right. And I was like tell him up from like look, this was a rubber ball, it's OK that you dropped it, but what if it would have been a glass ball, right? And so how do we learn from this and how do we move forward? And I'm a firm believer in the Socratic method, as I'm giving discipline to someone, where I ask them questions, right, and I let them lead themselves to the solution that they think is best, because the solution to correct one person's behavior may not be the solution to correct someone else's. How well did I answer your question?

Speaker 1: 20:47

That's perfect. Yeah, I like practical tips, so practical tip number one ask questions.

Speaker 2: 20:52

Yes, ask questions and stay open-minded, right Listen as if you're wrong and speak as if you're right.

Speaker 1: 21:00

Okay, you're going to finish off the lotus.

Speaker 2: 21:02

Yeah, let's do it. So the fifth petal of the lotus is fortification. Now, this is the hardest one to manage and there's a lot in there. Now, this is the hardest one to manage and there's a lot in there. So the fortification pedal is relates back to clarity, expectation, competency and empowerment and it talks about I say talks about, because we've got all this written out processes, the programs, the feedback, the rights and rituals, the iteration, the interdependent and the connectedness that has to occur to reinforce that clarity, expectation, competency and empowerment.

Speaker 2: 21:43

And I think about my current unit where we have the unit mascot and we are all in on it and we have seen over the last year this unit just start to come together and they start to identify with this mascot. Now, before it was just a oh yeah, we're this thing, and now it's a we're this thing. And so those types of rituals to the point where rights, where new people come in and we call them one thing, and then, after they end process and we do their hell, we patch them and say you are now this other thing that has that you have come to fruition and you are one of us, welcome to the family. So these types of rights and the other thing that's important to know here is there's a, an organization called the Maslow Research Institute and they have done a number of studies on Maslow's hierarchy and how it looks today in the workplace and what they found is that these basic psychological and self-fulfillment needs have changed and what they've become are basic needs, psychological needs and growth needs.

Speaker 2: 22:55

And what's really interesting about it is when you start taking a look at what falls into basic needs in the workplace. Now there are things like consideration, right, well-being, right, training is a basic need. Onboarding is a basic need, and not just onboarding when someone comes to the unit, but if they move from one position to another, how do you onboard them to the new position? Like, these become basic needs. And we hear these complaints too, and we don't connect these dots very well that when someone, when you've got a young staff sergeant who gets put into an NCOIC position in another flight and they're not told what to do, they're like you're a staff sergeant. Do staff sergeant stuff Figure?

Speaker 1: 23:40

it out. It's crazy.

Speaker 2: 23:41

Same thing as they become a flight chief. You're like be a flight chief. What does that mean? And the Air Force is making some strides in this with the prepping, the line JQSs, but we still have a long way to go and it's a basic need that people need and we look at psycho, psychological needs. Right. Belonging is one of those psychological needs positive interactions, camaraderie, feeling like you're part of something bigger than yourself, before you can even get to the growth needs.

Speaker 2: 24:07

And if we reflect back on what I said earlier about how our air force, facing the pacing threat that we face right now, needs the next generation to be better than what we are. We need them to grow. So we've got to give them these basic and psychological needs up front so that they can grow in what we need them to do. And fortification is the pedal that addresses that. And then, finally, the last pedal is assessment. In my signature block I have a little line that's a play on something the Air Force has said for a while now, and it says people first, culture, always mission focused. Elevate your organization Because it's great to take care of people. We take care of the people so that people can take care of the mission, because the mission is going to win the day for us. I cannot express enough how much this all has to come back. When we talk about people and we talk about psychological safety and we talk about mental health, it's all got to come back to resilience and being a resilient force that can accomplish the mission, get through it, win and then be okay on the other side.

Speaker 2: 25:18

So assessment is the tool, is the or is the pedal that we use to make sure that organizations are designing measures into what they're doing. Is what we're doing actually effective? Do I have key performance indicators and operations that tell me that I'm measuring what matters? As John Dewar would say in his book Measure what Matters. Am I measuring physiological safety, psychological safety? Am I measuring job satisfaction, member engagement? Are my people gainfully employed and intellectually stimulated? Am I going to retain them? And how do I know that I'm doing well in those fields? And I need to assess that right and I need to find what these measures are and if the measures that we choose up front aren't the right ones, that I need to adjust and assess something else. So that's the cultural Lotus in a nutshell. Open it up to any questions you have about it.

Speaker 1: 26:13

Absolutely. So I got a few questions from early on. You had talked about purpose and I definitely love when people find their purpose, but I want to ask you a question. The newer airmen don't have a 9-11. We now have kind of withdrawn and are moving on from anti-terrorism and more into global health engagements and some other things, so that's kind of the easy go-to purpose. What do you see challenges being going forward without having an event, a pinnacle event that drives people into that, like you had mentioned, like extreme patriotism?

Speaker 2: 26:49

I think it's got to come down to where the organization fits within the strategy, within the national defense strategy and within the Air Force. There are these things called strategic alignment. Why am I drawing a blank here? So it's a strategic alignment resource card maybe, but it's a really simple little document that lists at the top the key points of national defense strategy and then it goes down and says here's CSAS priorities, here's some SAS priorities, here your, your magic comps priorities, NAF wing group. And then you get to the squadron level If that's the level we're working with, and up nested within those is where you want to draw your purpose right.

Speaker 2: 27:34

If your, if your purpose or if your higher headquarters, uh, missions and priorities are all about taking care of people and being flexible for tomorrow, Um, and you're an intelligence unit, then your purpose may be something like we illuminate to deter or defeat. It's got to be open enough that you can say it's a purpose now and it's a purpose for tomorrow. And keeping in mind that on December the 6th 1941, nobody anticipated December 7th. On September 10th 2001, nobody anticipated december 7th. On september 10th 2001, nobody anticipated september 11th, right and so keeping that kind of perspective in a military organization, an air force organization and aligning that purpose with where the organization fits within the national defense strategy, I think is where we draw our purpose fits within the national defense strategy, I think, is where we draw our purpose.

Speaker 1: 28:39

Yeah, that's interesting. I'm curious. I saw a video recently it was of a FTAC instructor and he was going around the room and asking everyone why they joined. It was school, school school, and like because my dad was in school, school school, and so I wonder if that plays into that purpose as well, if you join for a set purpose. But I guess, like you said and we've seen, you know a lot of people, even Chief Bass, for example, like I'm going to do my four and leave and then you know, do 30.

Speaker 1: 29:03

So maybe where you start doesn't necessarily matter, or the reason you start.

Speaker 2: 29:07

I should say yeah, the question that came to my head when you, when you said that was is that a purpose or is? Or were those purposes or were they reasons? Um, who sets uh, completing their bachelor's degree as a vision as, like, the end destination? Right? And I, and when we look at young airmen in particular, we also have to understand they're coming from varying backgrounds and that they may not understand the purpose because they don't understand the strategy.

Speaker 2: 29:41

So it's the role of the leaders in the organization to tie what they do every day to that bigger picture, what they do every day, to that bigger picture. And when we can do that, then we can start instilling the purpose to, you know, within them. And it's not, it's not something that's going to happen one time, right, you're not going to tell them one time they're going to get it. It's about moving the needle a little bit Every single time you talk to them, whether it's at a commander's call or it's in a casual conversation, or they're in the room when you brief a visiting general or something, right, it's about them constantly hearing it over and over again until they convince themselves. And I say that because we can't convince anyone of anything. People have to convince themselves, and so that's the challenge.

Speaker 1: 30:32

Right, it is the challenge, but it can be done iteratively and incrementally in a very agile management sort of way, I'm medical by trade medical admin and one of the sections I think that's always a difficult one is TOPA. You know they do TRICARE and insurance and things like that and it's kind of the DMV of the med group. People always show up angry when their referral didn't go through or whatnot. But I've always felt really bad. And to touch on what you had touched on earlier, like show them how they fit into the larger picture. I feel like that's maybe overused. It's like, oh, if you just show them you know where they fit into the larger machine, they'll have this epiphany.

Speaker 1: 31:19

But when the airman is scanning 600 pages into HAME so that you know your digital record can be okay, it's absolutely important. When someone gets out and they get their VA claim, if stuff's missing they're not going to be able to be taken care of and things like that. But to the person that's scanning, you know with their eyes I mean 600 pages for socials or incorrect socials or the wrong person's patient information. It's just so difficult to make that cool. I mean Intel or something. I feel like you can make that sexy and cool, but scanning you know pages all day. It is important. But do you have any advice or something for that specific situation?

Speaker 2: 31:58

That's interesting. Yeah, so when my mind went to something I said earlier about gainful employment, that is intellectually stimulating, right, and I think that that's where that falls Right, and I think that that's where that falls in, quite possibly and I'm not sure, I'm not sure without take something that's old and make it relevant so that things become more effective and efficient, can they create something new that makes things more effective and efficient? Is there a way to instill that intellectual stimulation in what they're doing, at least enough so that that redundant, mundane work doesn't seem so redundant and mundane? And, like I said, I'm not sure, and and now you'll have my mind working on that for a good two weeks at least- okay, good, I'm glad the wheels are spinning, because that one's been difficult because somebody has to do it.

Speaker 1: 33:09

I mean records need to be accurate and things like that. And I know I believe they looked into software and things like that. But as we know, with AI if it's handwritten, for example, like it can scan text and font pretty well, but then if it was handwritten, then that's kind of out the window and then it could potentially miss somebody's page or social or name or something that's associated, because a lot of times with family members and things like that, they'll get mixed up and so the only way to identify is maybe a handwritten note or something that's on there. So really difficult to have to scan with your eyes. You know hundreds of pages, it's pretty mundane. But yeah, that's a good point. I'm curious to see what you come back with.

Speaker 2: 33:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:53

So just one other thing on that, because you know I did talk about about the bigger picture too.

Speaker 2: 33:57

It's also about expressing the bigger threat and exposing because I because now my mind is going to css's right and and our three fo's, our three f2s, our three f5s, um, who aren't in the, the, the operations of the sexier units, right, but they but they contribute and it's necessary, and if they weren't doing what they did, then our special operations folks would be distracted because they didn't get promoted when they were supposed to get promoted or they're not getting paid the right amount of pay because these awesome three fo's, three f5s and three f2s are in place, taking care of them day in and day out, and and so again I got to go back to like the iterative and incremental approach and whatever information that they need.

Speaker 2: 34:52

You expose them to the bigger threat, you expose them to the larger strategy. If they're on an airbase, you expose them to the missions of the airbase, get them time to actually walk through the units that they're supporting so they can see that there are people living in the housing, in family housing, sitting in the cockpits of those jets, and that they're real people and they're real souls that we're trying to protect, and when you make that connection right, when they make that connection in their own head, then their purpose is going to come out of them. So I'm still a firm believer in that. I'm still going to ponder it, though.

Speaker 1: 35:30

I got a quick story because I love stories and I don't know if I'll get a chance to share this one later on. But I remember I was air traffic. I moved over to contracting and I was super excited getting contracting, you know had a higher ASVAB score. You know I was looking forward to the challenges and getting to think and things like that, so excited to move over. But over time you know, whatever's going on kind of wears on you right? So good or bad, right. So, like you said, if it keeps going. And so the common thing in contracting is like I just fly a mouse, all I do is fill out paperwork, and so, you know, some people get kind of down about it because I just sit in a cubicle, you know, just fill in the blank there with whatever negative aspect it is. And so, even though I was excited, when I first came over a year, year and a half in, I was like, oh you know, maybe it is just paperwork. But luckily I had an awesome commander, peter O'Neill. He encouraged us a lot to get out and see the end products of the things that we were buying, the end user, how they were impacted, and so that was really good.

Speaker 1: 36:35

But I have one specific story. My daughter got sick. So Paisley Lucille, she got sick. We were at Travis at the time, so David Grant Massive Hospital, we fly in. Her temperature is high and we're not really sure what's going on. She doesn't seem right and so your stress, your anxiety, all these things are just kind of going crazy.

Speaker 1: 36:56

And you get in there, get her hooked up to this machine and then, once you get sucked up to the machine, you know, shows the vitals and the stuff to the nurse and things like that. And at that point the nurse is able to say, hey, this is kind of what's going on, we've seen it, you know, arise or trend right now and based on information just came out of this machine, I can tell you this is what it is. Or with pretty fairly certain you know, obviously practicing medicine, but pretty certain this is what's going on. And instantly you have that relief. You have that, you know, complete feeling of like, oh okay, and don't you know it, I look up, look at the machine, realize I had bought it earlier in the year.

Speaker 1: 37:33

And so immediately I realized everyone that comes in there feeling the way I do, stress, anxiety, just not feeling good, someone's loved one sister brother, you know, husband, whatever it is comes in and gets some sort of reassurance from that machine that's hanging on the wall. I mean, there's like nothing more powerful. So after that like the feelings of I fly a mouse and I just do, paperwork was just completely gone because you know it could be any piece of equipment or whatever it may be on base. You know, even though it's just cutting the contract, it's a vital piece of it. So I feel it's difficult, it's one thing to say you're part of the larger machine, but I'm lucky and I feel very blessed to have had like those very specific situations happen right in front of me and it's just kind of hard to shake off after that.

Speaker 2: 38:24

Yeah for sure, man. That's a perfect example. Like the purpose became true to you after that. You understood it and you convinced yourself that you had a righteous purpose, and you know quid pro quo here. You know, for me it was when I was a young staff sergeant and I was working a mission and one of our adversaries took an aggressive act against one of our allies and I worked through that and it was up until that point it just seemed like day after day time to make the donuts type of approach to work. After that day and the following two to three days, I was hooked right. The hook line and sink are all in. I was like this, like hook line and sinker all in. I was like this is what I want to do, because this is important and I get to save lives.

Speaker 1: 39:20

That's awesome. It's so great when you finally get to see it and it happens right in front of you. I feel like you know you can read books and different things, but things that happen right in front of you like the last longer, it harder, and you just remember it forever, which is awesome. So I want to move over and knock out a few questions that are just kind of generic and hopefully can help some people understand some things in their units. So what are some common signs of a positive or negative work culture?

Speaker 2: 39:55

Oh yeah, man, that's a. That's a great question. So the best way to tell where an organizational culture is is by how people talk, when you, when you actually stop and listen to what they're saying and how they're saying it. And I'm going to draw on the book Tribal Leadership by Dave Logan here, because he talks extensively about this and his work in this area, where he has noticed that there are five culture types. The first one is a life sucks culture type, and this is essentially saying the people are going to say man, it's bad for everybody, the world is just awful, it's bad for everybody. And then the next tier up from that it's a my life sucks, everybody else has a great life, I have a crappy life. And then the next tier up is a I'm great, but they're not attitude Right. And we hear that a lot in the air force. I know what I'm doing Now. If the rest of the team would just get on board. And then we start tying into, like Patrick Lencioni's ideal team player. You know philosophy about how someone has to be humble, hungry and socially smart in the workplace. Those people are not that they're. They're hungry, but they're not necessarily humble and maybe not even socially smart to know what they're doing. It's kind of like the God complex that we have traditionally associated with some doctors that were portrayed on television and in the movies. But then we move into the fourth tier, and this is where we want to be, and it's hard to get here because there's a huge fissure between tier three and tier four. And the fourth tier is we're great, and that mentality is what we're going for. Right, I talked earlier about I don't think my unit is there quite yet, but we're slowly moving in the right direction, right, moving the needle a little bit, at a time where people are starting to identify as that thing that is our mascot and they're starting to refer to themselves as that. Right, it's not warrior, it's not airmen, it's this thing that we are here, because we have a unique mission and we have a purpose, and so it's we, we, we. And when you're hearing we, then you know that you're in a really, really good place and membership engagement has grown and job satisfaction has grown and people feel connected.

Speaker 2: 42:35

And then the fifth tier. I said fifth tier. The fifth tier is basically everything's great, it's a utopia, right, and this is ephemeral, it's fleeting, it's going to pass is ephemeral, it's fleeting, it's going to pass. It happens when people achieve some great accomplishment and teams move into this fifth tier. But it's also a very dangerous tier to be in, because if the leader doesn't recognize that their team's in it, then it's very easy for them to slip down into the tier three, where they come off of that great achievement starting to say, well, I was great, but they weren't, and so you want to, you want to usher them back down into the we're great, we did that together and we can do it together again. So hopefully that that answers your your question.

Speaker 1: 43:25

Yeah, absolutely. Where do you think the majority of the air force falls? In those?

Speaker 2: 43:36

Edit this. So I'm not the Lorax and I cannot speak for the trees. What I have seen through the Project Nomad lens is that we see a lot of units hanging out at the tier 2, my life sucks. Or the tier three I'm great and you're not. They will have pockets of we're great. Or even if they're a tier three and they've got this, I'm great and you're not and they're being productive because you can't be productive. There's some connectedness there. There's pride in the unit there. There's probably pockets of my life sucks in there as well. What we don't see, what we haven't seen, is life sucks that attribute that's normally associated with, like gangs and mafias, where you know there's constantly a vie for power and one person trying to overthrow another, and I think our rank structure kind of, you know, mitigates the risk of that. But yeah, we're seeing a lot of tier two and tier three, primarily tier three, and every now and then we'll see a tier four and it's pretty awesome to see it when we do.

Speaker 1: 44:54

So not to go to a negative route, but just curious. You said, uh, kind of stepping on each other and things like that. So with the whole strat and you know the conflicts that come with that, or is there any strife in the units?

Speaker 2: 45:07

you know, I I don't have any evidence to to even draw a correlation there. I suspect there may be. I also suspect the way we treat innovation ties into that, where we try to reward people for innovating instead of rewarding innovation itself, which is probably the right approach. Strats can yeah, possibly that's possibility. The EFDP maybe, um, at the same time, there's a lot of goodness that comes out of of racking this unit and what the Air Force is asking for. This person has pursued proficiency in all of their airman leadership qualities and we're going to reward them for that with a stratification or a promotion statement. So, like I said, I don't have the evidence to draw even a correlation there.

Speaker 1: 46:11

Okay, I want to tee even a correlation there. Okay, I want to tee up a home run for you. What role does leadership play in shaping the culture at work, and how can those leaders foster a more mentally healthy environment for their teams?

Speaker 2: 46:26

Oh man, I hope I don't lose track of myself when I start talking about this and if I talk too long, just stop me. I'd say, first and foremost, leaders set the stage. I go back to that mission command comment that I made earlier. Right, clear commander's intent. What is our purpose? Where are we going? How are we going to get there those bare minimums right? What do we value in this organization and how are we going? How are we going to get there those bare minimums right? What do we value in this organization and how are we supposed to behave?

Speaker 2: 46:58

And then leaders have to exemplify that as well. They can't just write it down and leave it. They can't say it and then not do it down and leave it. They can't say it and then not do it. They have to be the example of what they're trying to tell their people to be, because you can read a book all day long. You mentioned this earlier. Read a book all day long. It's all academics, but until you see it in action, you don't actually know it. And we're playing the game of changing people's mindsets and working towards them convincing themselves that what they're doing is righteous and true. They've got to have role models to see. And those leaders are role models.

Speaker 2: 47:44

We look at the organizational membership levels that I learned a long time ago membership levels that I learned a long time ago. I don't even know if the Air Force still teaches them, but it starts with member and then supervisor, manager and leader and a manager. You know, we also used to get these philosophies and the Air Force was always really good about giving us philosophies but pretty bad about giving us practical examples or how to apply them. And so there's management, right. And management comes down to resources, right. Money, logistics, people, even facilities, equipment, reputations, relationships. You can manage all of those things, but leadership is the art, right. Leadership is setting the example. Leadership is the mentorship that is passive and the coaching that is active, that has to go on. And leaders are developers.

Speaker 2: 48:45

We talked about development earlier, right, leaders are the ones who are in it for the long haul and get their people to trust them, that they're in it for the long haul and that they're in service of the people, not the other way around. And leaders are the ones asking the hard questions like how do I want to trust this person? How do I want this person to trust me? How do I want this person to trust me. How do I want this to this person to trust that I trust them Right? And we can go down that rabbit hole for a while, and those are that's when you get to a that mindful approach to what they do. How would I answer your question each moment? And to have that mindful approach to what they do, how would I answer your question?

Speaker 1: 49:54

Great, you stole my reference. I was just about to ask you a question about Brene Brown, so I'm curious what your thoughts, tips, tricks are for balancing. Vulnerability so we've heard lately I mean that's been more of a common thing. Vulnerability, so we've heard lately I mean that's been more of a common thing. But at the same time I've also seen people that are maybe identifying too much maybe, and so, like you know, this is uncomfortable. So one good example right now DHA, right, super painful, and so everyone likes to joke that it sucks and it's a terrible transition, whatnot. And so part of that's nice, because I also don't want to hear from the commander that everything's like rosy and perfect. So some openness to be like this is difficult, this is uncomfortable, but how do you balance like being open and not poisoning the well either? You want to be not rosy and everything's perfect, but I also don't want to hear that it's terrible all the time. So I guess you just got to find a middle ground there.

Speaker 2: 50:57

Yeah, again, I go back to how Brene Brown defines vulnerability, right, when she talks about it, she says it is an emotion that is neither positive or negative, it is neutral. And so we get this bias towards the word vulnerability from the time we're young, that it's weakness or that it's unsafe. But in actuality is to just lay out the truth, lay out the facts and trust that your people are going to hear them for facts, and then opening up the floor to questions and answering those questions Honestly. I am a person who believes in full transparency, right, with all of my people. If I can tell them, if it's not protected by some law that, and so I can't tell them, or if they don't have a need to know, so I can't tell them, I will tell them like I'm. I am open and honest right Now.

Speaker 2: 51:46

I've also learned over the years to to shape my messaging in a way, so I don't throw anybody under the bus, right? I present facts about the situation without addressing people, and you know, just as a side note, that's what I teach my kids too. I tell them ideas, ideologies, thoughts, um thoughts, uh, um. Philosophies. They're all open for critique. People are not right Like you, don't? You don't critique people's disposition or you don't. You can critique actions, but it does us no good to label a person Uh, and so I think that that um is really uh, you know how we get after vulnerability as a thing and we get after transparency as a thing in leadership, and I guess by thing I mean approaches in leadership, and I don't think that we should be scared of it at all.

Speaker 1: 52:48

I guess there I remember her in one of her videos also talks about, I guess, like you said, not negative or positive, Because she also says like she doesn't mean coming into work and like crying and being overly, like emotional and like pouring out your heart as the leader of the organization that's not what she's saying but being able to be truthful and be able to have those conversations. So I think, like you had said, probably the core of the whole thing is actually understanding the word vulnerability at its core, instead of the negative connotations that we have with it. I got another question. I want to squeeze in a couple more here. Since the podcast focuses on mental fitness, I want to ask a question about me just completely losing my questions In a diverse. Oh no, that's not it. Wow, how can organizations break down stigma surrounding mental health issues and promote open conversations? We talked about feeling saved and feeling trusted, but how do you actually get after that?

Speaker 2: 53:54

Yeah, what I've seen a lot more leaders doing in the Air Force and what I really appreciate and I would like to think that I'm one of them is being open about their own challenges. Right, go back again to role modeling. I talk to my people about the darkness that I faced when I went through a traumatic event and how it never has completely gone away and I know it's there. I just know how to manage it and I have the coping skills. I sought therapy and I got the help to teach me how to manage that and I believe when they see their leaders as human beings and their leaders role and and that approach to mental fitness, then, um, they're more likely to do that as well. How will I answer that question?

Speaker 1: 54:46

Perfect. Yeah, I saw someone had said, uh, their commander or maybe someone they knew, uh would post their calendar on the door and uh, they put their you know their appointment for therapy or the counselor or whatnot, and so at the end of the day, on Wednesday or whatever, leaving at three o'clock, getting that knocked out, and so that's something that's interesting, that's being open. I still don't know if that's like sharing too much, it's almost like HIPAA or something, but I mean having the conversation and getting that information out is is good and, you know, walking the talk, I think it's probably the most important part. I got one last question for you.

Speaker 2: 55:23

If I could please, if I could address that real quick. So I think that's brilliant. Right, I give a lot of people access to my calendar and I put my kids baseball games on at their music lessons. I was taught when I was younger in my career by some very good leaders that where you put your time and where you put your money is what you care about most, and so I think showing that is absolutely brilliant on that leader's part. And you mentioned HIPAA, but we don't have to talk about what it is and, as a matter of fact, I would say we shouldn't talk about why that leader is going to therapy, because that's the stigma itself. Is what are people going to assume if they see that I'm going to therapy but if my leader is going and that leader doesn't feel it necessary to tell people why that, I don't feel it necessary to tell people why either, and that's the kind of role modeling I think is going to break down that stigma.

Speaker 1: 56:22

What's your thought on when the door is closed at work, those closed door meetings?

Speaker 2: 56:31

Oh well, it depends on what they're about, right?

Speaker 1: 56:36

That's why I bring it up. It's just always funny to me People oh, they're about right. That's why I bring it up. It's just always funny to me People oh they're in. There Must be something bad. I'm like I don't understand why it's always bad.

Speaker 2: 56:44

Right, it's the same thing, and if you don't let people know anytime while you're closing the door, then they don't have a right to assume that they know why you're closing the door, because it could be a plethora of reasons. I mean, I've closed the door to talk about disciplinary issues. I've also closed the door because someone's mom passed away. Right, I've also closed the door because we were. We were planning a birthday party for someone in the office next door, or you closed the door because the hallway was loud.

Speaker 1: 57:16

Like that's it. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Oh, that's funny. Okay, one last question we'll squeeze in here. We might have to do another episode sometime. As we look towards the future, what trends or innovations do you see in the intersection between mental health and workplace culture?

Speaker 2: 57:38

That is a tough question. What trends do I see in the intersection between mental health and workplace culture? I kind of don't want to spoil the questions that I have for you that are coming up, because I listened to your episodes and I know I get to ask you questions, so so I, if I could, I want to hold off on that, cause. I think I kind of hit that and then I get to boomerang it back to you.

Speaker 1: 58:08

Okay, perfect. So what question do you have then, since you got it teed up All?

Speaker 2: 58:15

right, I got to lead into it, so all right, I gotta lead into it, so all right. So I'm a firm believer that it behooves us to approach all pillars of resilience in the same way we learn to approach the physical pillar right. And, uh, you know, I mentioned I don't maybe I didn't mention it, but I practice mindfulness meditation. I do that every single morning, and that's because I want to cultivate my mental resiliency, and it also helps me cultivate my spiritual resiliency, which I view as an existential connection to life itself. So I use that because it is powerful, it is proven. So my question to you is what do you think is the best approach for the for Air Force organizations to take to inform airmen about the benefits of mindfulness practice? And, moreover, how would you approach establishing a mindfulness ethos within an Air Force organization?

Speaker 1: 59:10

Oh, I would love to. Honestly, I think one of the biggest challenges we have is self-reflection. It's interesting because my boss sent out a text on Friday and he was asking us what we thought about work-life balance and how we kind of tackle that and one I don't love work-life balance. I think work-life integration or something is better, because balance indicates that there's like a net zero sum where it needs to balance out and be perfect, which I mean that'll never happen. So integration or some other word other than balance, I think is better.

Speaker 1: 59:44

I like musical terms harmony, harmony. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, because I mean ebbs and flow. I've heard that that's probably even better because sometimes you're gonna be at work more, sometimes you you're going to be at home more. You know it is what it is Ebbs and flows, highs and lows or whatever, even a roller coaster maybe.

Speaker 1: 1:00:06

But self-reflection, I think, is super important. That's kind of what I had talked about in this conversation is we have Google. You can Google any answer of any question in the world in three seconds, so we get anything so fast. We like fast food, we like instant answers, we like instant gratification. We want things done yesterday, we want to go faster, we want to have Teslas that drive and holes in the ground and everything's better Faster, faster, faster is what I'm trying to get at, and so I feel like we don't do a great job of slowing down. Self-reflection is so important.

Speaker 1: 1:00:43

One thing that you had mentioned was identification. Like if you don't even know the organization is struggling or your people aren't doing good, then you're not going to try to fix it. So when we talk about the Alcoholics Anonymous or whatever, like identifying the problem or whatever it, so I mean we talk about the you know Alcoholics Anonymous or whatever, like identifying the problem or whatever it may be, if you never identify it, there's never going to be any change. So your methods for mission and vision and the graphics that you've made with the Lotus and whatnot are amazing. I love the graphics to be able to see those, but none of those do any good if you don't even start because you can't identify. So self-reflection, if there was a way for us to slow down instead of go faster. I know some people throw out like slow is fast and some of those generic things, but I've never seen in practice a commander ever sit anybody down.

Speaker 1: 1:01:34

At my last base I tried to work with a psychologist and I kind of joked, but it was a little bit of serious on, you know, taking over the conference room and the third floor and you know, just sitting and maybe doing breathing exercises or something. I ended up leaving before any of that came to fruition. But yeah, I think self-reflection is super important. I had a shirt, brian Flanagan he was great or is great, but one thing he did was he blocked time on his schedule. And so one thing that you had said earlier I love General Teicher he's retired now, but he used to always say that and I think it's a quote from someone before but if you want to see what's important to someone, you check theirbook and their calendar which I don't know if anyone even has checkbooks anymore but you see the money and the time right, and so the shirt would block time every friday to sit, and I think it even set on the calendar like quiet moments for self-reflection or something that you could see on its calendar.

Speaker 1: 1:02:33

But it was to see how the week went, what went well, what didn't go well, what came up, why did I not accomplish things I should have, and how can I change things so that I can get those knocked out next week, not just like every week. I didn't get enough time, I didn't get enough time, you're not going to get any more time. So, like, that value or variable is not going to change. So, being able to identify and figure out what went wrong does he need to elevate it, does he need to give it to the commander, does he need to delegate more, or whatever it may be, but self-reflection is super important. I just don't know how you do it on a large scale. I don't know if that's trying to like push out an app, or you know some way to connect people on their phones, because that seems to be. You know the technology connection as we move forward. But what are your thoughts?

Speaker 2: 1:03:26

How could you get that out? That's why I asked you, because it's a nut I haven't cracked yet. I wish I knew. I think there are a number of things that stand in our way. Um, some of it is, um, is you know, time? It would take a lot of time to to teach people mindfulness practice and or how to practice their mindfulness. Um, some of it is people's personal beliefs, right, and, and they have um, um, an, an aversion to the idea of mindfulness practice. Uh, so I I'm I'm not really sure where to go, but hopefully we can figure it out. Right, continue to think about it.

Speaker 2: 1:04:01

So yeah, I'll keep thinking about it, what I will say is something that you said earlier really made me think about a guy named Dr Jason Womack goes by JW and he did work for the Air Force. Now he works for the Space force a great dude, just a motivational speaker and specializes in resiliency and connectedness and he talks all about these things and I think there may be some answers and some of the things that he's looking into. So I'm excited to see you know where his work with airmen and guardians goes. You know where his work with Airmen and Guardians goes.

Speaker 1: 1:04:38

Yeah, that'll be awesome. I follow him on LinkedIn. He's got some great stuff. I think the start of this I mean it would take a really long time, but I mean kind of the point of why I started the podcast is kind of at the root of this is we take care of the physical body so well, which you talked on other episodes. You go to the clinic and you know they'll give you medicine and a plan to fix yourself or physical therapy, or it's this whole you know, printed out thing on what you're supposed to do when you leave. But we're still stuck in stigma, not even able to go and get counseling or do things.

Speaker 1: 1:05:11

So we'd have to at least get to the point where taking care of your mental fitness and taking care of your mind is as equal or normal I don't want to say normal, but on equal playing ground is taking care of your physical body. That's where it would start, I think. And then you know, the same way, there's classes for yoga and zumba and you know whatever else there'd probably be. You know places to be able to sit and meditate, or you know, maybe there's places on the track, uh, where they have like the workout equipment. There could be like a place you could sit in nature and feel better. But I think it starts with everyone not just a few of us, but everyone's seeing the physical body um the same as the mind. So I think that's where it starts, which I agree.

Speaker 2: 1:05:58

I wish I um the same as the mind. So I think that's where it starts, which I agree. All right, I got one more question for you if we got time.

Speaker 1: 1:06:01

Oh, absolutely, I got no time limit.

Speaker 2: 1:06:04

Right, so it's along the same lines. Um, so, about once a quarter, uh, you know approximately. Uh, I scheduled time to either talk to a counselor or a coach because I want an objective. I schedule time to either talk to a counselor or a coach because I want an objective third party opinion on my approach to life. It goes back to treating that mental pillar the same way I treat my physical pillar. If I'm going to go to the doctor and get checkups, I'm going to go to a psychologist or a counselor or a coach to get checkups as well, or a counselor or a coach to get checkups as well. What do you think Air Force organizations must do to transform airmen's perspectives on mental health, or mental fitness, as you put it, so they're not just willing but hungry for candid feedback on their personal mental conditions?

Speaker 1: 1:06:54

Oh shoot, that's a good one. I I did see the recent launch of the department of the air force coaching website, so that's a super good step in the right direction. Uh, still kind of limited on who can access it and as get approved, uh, through your leadership. Um, that's one thing that slightly bummed me out about that Cause I was ecstatic when I saw the link posted, uh, but upon clicking on it, having to go through an approval I think leads us to, you know it's, I'm sure it's a money and you know number of slots and licenses and things like that. But, um, I'm kind of down dancing around the question. But, um, I think the core of that is equal access, I mean to everyone. If we do like these cool coaching things, but only you know the people that we determine or we think are bright or we think cause, I mean anyone can have a breakthrough or things like that. So, um, I think that's what it would have to get to. I just don't know how we get there based on, you know, financials and things like that, um, cause I think a lot of people do want to grow and things like that. Um, I just don't think we have the access and I don't know how we could do that. I know we've done. You know true North and some of the internal agencies and things like that. So maybe that's um the push for that. I know in soft we have the POTIF initiative. I know in SOF we have the POTIF initiative. So that's trying to take care of you know the hard to create and train SOF members and their families with dieticians, strength and conditioning and similar things like True North, so that internal support. So I wonder if those programs could be more robust. But I feel like a lot of times when the NDAA or, you know, congress, if they do manage to pass the budget, um, it's just usually cut. So it's hard for me to say like, oh, we could probably get a bunch more money and you know, make this program way more robust. I'd like to think that. But um, I don't know if that actually happened, but that might be the way to do it.

Speaker 1: 1:08:54

I think where we sit right now with the stigma, with mental health and things like that, we're kind of stuck. But I wonder if they were in your unit and you saw them more often and they went to your events, kind of the same way, true North, does you start to build rapport because you see them, that familiarity, and then maybe you're able to bridge that gap and start working on your um. You know your mental fitness and being able to grow, but I think that that almost like I hate to ditto myself because that's obnoxious. But I think that kind of goes back to the last question.

Speaker 1: 1:09:30

I think it does need to get to a point where the mind is seen as the same as the body, because we'll go to the gym and make creative workouts and do handstands with barbells on our feet or you know all these crazy things, and go and tell your friend you came up with a new workout, but I never hear anybody like, oh, I sat in the park and I, you know, came up with a new breathing exercise.

Speaker 1: 1:09:52

You should really try it. And maybe I'm not close enough to the people that do, but it you should really try it, and maybe I'm not close enough to the people that do, but it doesn't seem like it's to that level where you talk about what reps on what machine and you know, the same way you do with the physical body. I think if we could get physical in mind, which is so bizarre, your brain is in your in your head, it's part of your body. It should be one in the same. But yeah, I think that's probably where we need to start seeing them equal. One and the same, but yeah, I think that's probably where we need to start seeing them equal.

Speaker 2: 1:10:20

Kind of a cop out.

Speaker 1: 1:10:22

No you answered that question. Great, thank you, awesome. Well, yeah, thanks for coming out. I want to give you a final message or takeaway to listeners. Just one thing they hear this last line and walk away. What do you want them to take?

Speaker 2: 1:10:40

hear this last line and walk away. What do you want them to take? What I would say is always start with yourself, right. Start with yourself. Figure out what your values are Again, not what you were taught your values are, but what your values actually are. Take a good hard look at your behaviors and your actions every day and make sure those two things align and from there you can take a look at your organization's values and align your values to your organization's values so that your actions and behaviors align to those as well. And then you can step into the realm of followership.

Speaker 2: 1:11:07

After that, and followership being not a blind sheep following, but coming in with your true self, because you have aligned your values and your actions and behaviors. And so you know following as yourself, being honest and loyal through through Sorry excuse me Loyal through honesty. And then from there, and knowing how to how to follow well and accept someone else's vision as your own, to follow well and accept someone else's vision as your own then step into leadership. At that time, right With asking yourself the hard question of how do I feel about leading other people? And if your answer to that is, I feel really good about it, then take on those leadership roles and continue to grow yourself.

Speaker 1: 1:11:52

Awesome. So I want to try to summarize a few main points. It's going to be tough because we talked about a lot of greatness, but really being able to have trust in your team and, like Shannon said, it really starts with yourself. So making sure that you feel safe, you feel like you can trust yourself, and then you can really start to trust the other people and make sure you're building that organization where people can speak out about things they don't like and come up with innovation. There's not going to be much innovation without that trust and the feeling of safety at work, so that's super important.

Speaker 1: 1:12:27

I want to encourage all the listeners to share their thoughts. Let me know what was good, bad and indifferent. We got the social media stuff on Facebook. I also have the email listed there, trying to expand out to YouTube a little bit, but these are pretty much all the closing remarks. Thank you, shannon, very much for coming out. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 1:12:46

If Shannon will let me, I might be able to post a couple of the pictures or whatnot. I don't want to give away too much of the proprietary information, but since you did hear about it here, we might be able to post up some graphics. That was my favorite part of the experiment and working through that is being able to really visualize it. I'd heard mission and vision. You know I was at six or seven years in the Air Force at that point and I was, like you know I've heard the terms a lot of times of being able to see the visual car drive down the road is a great example. But yeah, thanks for coming out and I love you all. Have a great day.