MindForce: Mental Fitness & Life Stories!
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MindForce: Mental Fitness & Life Stories!
From Air Traffic Control to Advocating Inclusion: Marcus Levias on DE&I's Role in Shaping Resilient Work Cultures
Welcome to the show. This is MindForce, the podcast for love, life and learning. I'm your host, nate Shear, and this is where your mind matters. Today, we'll be talking about diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace. Today, I got Marcus Levias in the house, so we're going to start with the who, what, why. Who are you, what do you do and why are you here?
Speaker 2:what? Why? Who are you? What do you do and why are you here?
Speaker 2:Marcus Levias, I am a retired Air Force air traffic controller. I'm kind of versed all over in education. I actually have a master's degree in diversity, equity and inclusion and social justice through the University of Oklahoma. What do I do on a daily basis? Now?
Speaker 2:I work for the state of Texas as a management analyst. I'm giving back to the DS space through the state, through adult protective services, child protective services. I look at our programs. I try to find out what's, you know, the most cost effective and equitable way to move forward on things and why so. I definitely have a passion for diversity and inclusion, and why so? I definitely have a passion for diversity and inclusion. I've taught a few courses. I do my own consultation work outside of my everyday job to make sure that diversity, equity and inclusion projects are moved forward around the nation. Most of my work I do pro bono because I believe in it more than I believe in the financial compensation for it. So I give back when I can, I talk about it when I can. I try to get other people motivated about it and educated about diversity, inclusion, because it's a great space. It's a new conversation for a lot of people to have and I'm just willing to help out and assist any way I can.
Speaker 1:As a whole, it's just something we need to keep having these conversations about. So that's kind of the point behind the podcast is to continue to have this conversation and make it more and more normal. But before we get started, I want to give you a chance to shoot a question my way. Make this conversational and then we'll get into the interview.
Speaker 2:What do you got? Let's see, nate, we have a very long background. We've been friends for almost 20 years, believe it or not. So let's see, yeah, it's been that long. What is one thing that you've seen in this space that is a common theme when we're talking about mental fitness?
Speaker 1:I think the most common theme is just a lack of knowledge or education, because everything really comes down to perspective. I mean, it's how you were raised, how you were, you know, grew up and what you experienced throughout your life, and so I'd like to, in most cases, believe that people you know aren't hurting people or doing things intentionally. I think there's good and a majority of people obviously have serial killers and you know outliers to that. But I think as a whole, most people come to work they want to do a good job, they want to take care of the people around them and things like that. So I would say probably a lack of knowledge. There's so many things I've seen where we've shown videos at work or even when people start to open up. I think that's a really great time when people opens up to their co kind of give up, a little vulnerability there, which is kind of difficult. So I think a lot of us are A-type personalities and so we want to be strong and tough and all these things. But when the vulnerability opens up, I think that really helps people understand that what their actions have done have hurt another, usually unintentionally. So I think that lack of knowledge is really difficult because you just kind of go through your life and you don't really really understand or realize the things that are impacting other people.
Speaker 1:So I think one thing I've touched on in other episodes too is reflection. I think that's probably the most important thing we need to do, which we just don't do a very good job now. It's fast food, drive-thrus, it's, you know, googling answers, getting information in a second. So we're all about faster, faster, faster. Everything's getting it quicker and you know, quote unquote better. But I think slowing down and stopping and reflecting is a super important thing and you know I don't always do it myself, but I'd like to try to make that more intentional. You know, stopping on Friday or whatever it is to really recap the week, like what did I do, what went well? You know how could I have impacted people? Did people tell me things that you know they provide feedback that I do need to sit on, like if you get feedback and you just, you know, kind of press on, then that feedback is kind of wasted. So I think, slowing down and really realizing how we interact with other people.
Speaker 2:That was kind of longer, but that's perfect.
Speaker 1:That's actually exactly what I think often about a lot of things. So first question we want to make sure we're laying this foundation as we dive deeper in the subject. So, marcus, what is D E and I, or D E I in your own words? What is it?
Speaker 2:D, e and I, which is also D, e, I, N, bi-n-b. It depends on where you go. So the gist of diversity, equity, inclusion and, some people will say, belonging, really is going back to the basics of just being a human being. It allows everyone to come into whatever space it is, whether it be the workspace, maybe the neighborhood but it allows you to be your authentic self based on who you are, and we're a myriad of different things. We're more than color. We're more than gender. We're more than our sexual preference. We're more than you know. You know a lot of different things make up who we are as individuals, make up who we are as individuals. Dei gives us that opportunity to acknowledge our individuality and bring it to the workforce and bring it into our public spaces and make it work for society as a whole.
Speaker 2:That's what we talk about when we talk about diversity.
Speaker 2:When we talk about equity, we're going back and we're looking at like, hey, does everyone have a fair chance?
Speaker 2:We understand that, based on your financial situation, your background or, you know, maybe the color of your skin, where you grew up, like all those things influence your opportunities in order for you to succeed. So when we look at equity we're looking at hey, does this person have a chance to succeed fairly? And then inclusion is just, does this person belong, does this person? Can this person walk into the office? Can this person walk into their neighborhood and actually feel like they belong there and they're included in their opinion matters, which I'll discuss a little bit more as we get deep into the interview. But the gist of it is is really just like hey, can I be my authentic self in these spaces and have a fair chance and be included? That is literally diversity, equity, inclusion. It's not a personal attack against anybody, it's not, you know, this giant. I have to have certain faces in certain spaces and stuff like that, but it's in the grand scheme of things, once you will it down, it's just everybody has a fair chance at being themselves.
Speaker 1:So that's perfect. Yeah, the next question I wanted to ask. You started to touch on it, but I don't know if there's anything else you want to expand on. But what? What is it not?
Speaker 2:What? What do people kind of get wrong? I think one of the biggest issues I see when we first discuss diversity, equity and inclusion is the word diversity. It makes a lot of people's skin crawl. I actually discuss often when I actually talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, I don't like to use the word diversity right off the bat. I'll start out with some talk about inclusion first and then roll into the equity and enroll into diversity, because a lot of people actually they'll shut the message down, they won't even like hear you after you bring up diversity, because they always think diversity is race and gender.
Speaker 2:But it's so much more than that. Right, it's ableism, it's understanding, it's education, it's financial opportunity. Is understanding, is education is financial opportunity, like there's so much that goes into it. That again, that makes us who we are as an individual. That we must address when we're talking about diversity. But you just have to take that negative connotation away that it's always going to be about race and gender.
Speaker 1:Perfect, ok. Next question this podcast is focused on mental fitness, so how does fostering DE&I in the workplace contribute to overall mental fitness for individuals?
Speaker 2:So, like again, like I said, I just don't like talking about diversity, so I'll talk about inclusiveness first. That's the easiest way to answer this question. Diversity, again, like I said, in some crowds, as soon as you bring it up, it'll shut anybody down, right, that's their mental defense, so I don't want to talk about this, ok, cool. So we'll talk about inclusion. I'll talk about inclusion, just the definition of it. Right, it's the practice of policy of providing equal access to opportunities and resources for people who might otherwise be excluded or marginalized based on their physical, intellectual disabilities, or just belong to a minority group. Cool. So, as an individual, right, we're made up of all these myriad of influences, right, whether you know, it's our background, our grandparents, where we raise, where we live, the whole nine, how that affects our mental fitness. When you think about it is how can I show up and be myself and be included in the conversation? How do I get my seat at the table? And inclusion does that? When everybody feels like they can come into office and they're heard and they're understood for themselves, they feel included on that team and in doing so, they're more willing to be open, they're more willing to share ideas, they're more willing to push things and be a little bit edgier in their thinking and their innovation, to keep moving things forward.
Speaker 2:But I can tell you me personally when I've had those moments where I didn't feel included on the team, it affected my mental health because I wanted to show up and I wanted to be the best employee I could be. You know, I wanted to help the team but if I didn't feel welcome based on maybe it was my hairstyle that I was wearing at the time or maybe it's the way I carry myself or, you know, maybe it was my accent in some circles If I didn't feel included, like that affected me mentally because I'm bringing my best, authentic self to the table to help the team. And if I can't do that, like then why am I here? And I know other people feel that way because I've sat down with tons of people and have conversations about you know, did they feel included on the team? What could we do better for them?
Speaker 2:And a lot of people are honest and it wasn't just based on race and gender. I've actually had people that work for me who are neurodivergent and ADHD, people that work for me who are neurodivergent and ADHD, and you know they felt like hey, once their diagnosis came out, that they didn't feel that they were included on the team when they were excluded from certain projects based on what their diagnosis was, and I made sure that that wasn't the case and that they were included on everything. So this definitely comes down to inclusion. Inclusion in mental fitness in the workplace go hand in hand.
Speaker 1:One thing that kind of reminds me of that not that it's directly in line, but pretty similar is something I've seen that comes up quite a bit is when different people bring up ideas and the leaders don't circle back to kind of say why that idea wouldn't work. I think that's one thing that happens quite a bit, which we talk about. Another downfall we have is lack of communication or poor communication. So I feel like a lot of times you bring it up, you bring up what you believe is a good idea, a good idea, and you try two or three times, and if they always go a different direction and you never know why, then you stop bringing up ideas and you kind of just go a different direction. And I guess that kind of plays similar to like not feeling included. And I know Simon Soneek talks about trust. So does trust come up in some of your trainings? Oh yeah, I talk about trust.
Speaker 2:You have to, and this trust has to go up and down the communication chain, up and down the trust chain Because, although, like a lot of people, I call it DNA work, sometimes I call it performative arts, Although, like a lot of people, I call it DNA work, sometimes I call it performative arts, and I hate to use that term, but it is because not everyone has the true buy-in and it's pretty obvious for, like you know, somebody that has a background in it and can understand. But a lot of things that are done don't build trust. When we're talking about diversity and inclusion like, okay, hey, whatever company, yes, you change your logo to a rainbow for a month, but I don't see you like contributing into any of the LGBTQ concerns or issues or you know stuff like that. So you, you have to have that and you, it has to be. You really have to be bought in on the things that you're saying.
Speaker 2:You can't have that performance or it's because people are going to lose trust in it. And then you definitely weaken DEI across the world when we do things like that, when we take those half steps and half attempts at trying to actually be included in DEI and then again, mentally, people pick that up. They don't trust it, they don't want to be involved with it. It will eventually affect their mental fitness or if they're employees or you know their consumers of a product or you know for a company that is into performative D at all. So definitely something to consider.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. I want to ask you had said personally, you know, sitting at the table and things like that, even though you've been out. Is there any particular memories you have that kind of just stung you enough or they kind of stick with you for years later?
Speaker 2:So, yeah, two. One was on my very first deployment. I had a DEI issue that affected my mental health. First time being away from home, I was actually stationed out of Japan at the time, war was raging, things were happening like it was full scale and we had some diversity issues and people in leadership, you know, once we address the issues, it fell upon deaf ears, they weren't trying to hear it, oh, we don't see it, or we don't see it that way, and it has started to affect the team as a whole, like the mental health of the team started to decline rapidly and in doing so, of course, you're called out at work. Oh, we don't feel you're contributing as much, or you're not as involved and your morale is low and you're like I'm struggling here. I'm struggling here because there's a diversity issue, and it's like do you want me to stay alive every day and come to work and put on the best face for it, or do you want me to lash out to try to fix this problem? How does this work? Um, that was one issue, and then, I think, the second and I actually have put this in one of the questions for later on the interview the summer of 2020 was telling.
Speaker 2:Um, it rocked a lot of people to their core.
Speaker 2:It exposed a lot of people for their lack of diversity and lack of understanding of diversity and inclusion and equity and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:And for me, I think one of the hardest things and things that stuck out to me was just like the definite silence from people in critical leadership positions to address diversity, equity, inclusion.
Speaker 2:You didn't have to be specific about it, you just had to address it. Hey, I understand, there's something going on in the world, we're going to figure this out together, a simple email or something like that. But just the lack of nothing was very telling and it was borderline scary to be like, hey, we really don't have a response for this. And when the responses did come out, again that trust factor was kind of broke down because it took about four or five days, I noticed, on average, for the communication to go out about what was going on in the world. And a lot of people saw that, and not just people of color, a lot of people from marginalized communities saw that and it was, it was damning for a lot of people, a lot of Would you have rather seen something come out quickly and potentially not worded all that well, as opposed to just not hearing anything at all?
Speaker 1:Just give an effort.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I actually did. In the position I was in at the time, I was actually able to help some leaders develop a communication plan for this. But it was about three days after, you know, somebody reached out and they were like hey, marcus, that's the person we need to talk to. And I told him I said man, just anything, anything. Hey, I watched the news today. Things are weird. Right now we're going to figure this out, this is pretty messed up.
Speaker 2:Colonel John Doe sinned, like everything, sometimes in those issues, public affairs won't be able to save you Like you have to go and be a genuine person and be involved. And I think that for me was one of those issues where I was like, wow, we, we do have an issue that we need to address. We had some of the right people in the right places at the time to kind of get back on track. But just from the everyday, general, like local management was, it was. It was damning, very, very much so.
Speaker 1:What do you think the root of that was? Just not knowing what to say, being at a loss, trying to defend or side on one side or the other, or what was that?
Speaker 2:So for my colleagues, everyone said I want to say something, I don't know what to say, and I said fair enough, I understand that this is something where you're like, if I say the wrong thing, this could cost me and I get that. Or a myriad of people of color around in different, various ranks, uh, reach out. And which people did I mean? Just the timeline was a little slow. I think that the hurt was already there and people were like why aren't we saying anything Like that's just business as normal today? Um, and a lot of people are hurting, so, um, so I'm curious.
Speaker 1:I'm curious with you know, it seems like there's been more incidences that have gone on, unfortunately, and so, with those coming up in the news, do you think that those should be addressed every time, or how do you know when to step in and kind of say something?
Speaker 2:Again, we have those Monday meetings right, wednesday meetings, whatever, and it's worth grabbing somebody and having that team as a leader right. We always have a toolkit full of all these tools. You probably need to have somebody in your toolkit who is outside of your demographic and go like, hey, is this worth, you know, is this juice worth the squeeze today? And they'll let you know like no, you know, this is, this is minor, this is localized, but we had witnessed something that had grew to a level that was, it was a national incident, televised everywhere, had made international headlines and we were just slow. We were slow off the off the blocks on that one.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm going to jump back real quick. You had touched on personal mental fitness, which I think you did really well, but I wanted to kind of expand on it a little bit because you had started to go down that road. So, on your deployment on that team, can you talk a little bit more about how it eroded not just the individual but the members of the team and the overall morale?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so one thing is I noticed we were housed different. The minorities are housed different in this location. It came up in casual conversation like hey man, why are we all in a room together? Like it's kind of weird, we're five deep and everybody's too deep. Uh, not the greatest at math, but I know that's not right. Um, so you know like conversations would happen with our other coworkers and I'm like hey man, we heard about your living situation. Like what's up with that? Like no, no man, we're just living it up. Um, and then like tiny incidents started to happen.
Speaker 2:Um, throughout the deployment, where you know, one of my roommates would come back and be like hey man, did you hear about my situation? And it was a diversity issue and they started just to feel down Like individually. We went down like one by one, like we were slowly being pulled down by certain individuals and of course we rallied together our roommates, we all rallied together to support each other. But it became like almost like we were isolated, like we were trying to support ourselves through this situation and with only two phone calls home. Once you had 15 minutes, I think, back then to call home, like you really couldn't call mom and you know mom would give you that sound advice, that sage advice on how to get through the situation. But we really didn't have that opportunity, so we really relied on each other. We didn't have the programs that existed. Now, you know, we didn't have an equal opportunity officer really available and all that Like those things just didn't exist. Based on our situation, we were kind of like a fog.
Speaker 2:But as we went down individually it started to affect the team.
Speaker 2:Like the communication at work was different and being in the career show that we were in I was air traffic controller you sit in a room and refusing to talk to the person that's in the room with you is probably one of the most dangerous things that can happen.
Speaker 2:But because there was like a lack of trust, like we didn't know who you could trust to help us, we didn't know who could advocate for us it really eroded away at our everyday functions and we did start to have some minor safety incidents because the communication barrier was broken down between the team and, I'll be honest, nobody came to save me. I eventually was removed from that deployment before I deployed to another location due to diversity issues. So when I did arrive to my fort base, that group was a little bit more diverse and they understood what was going on, kind of talking through some things, gave me some support, apologized for everything that had happened, but I still had left four guys behind. I had to deal with that, you know, for another couple months and that was sad for me to realize that, but I did save myself from that situation.
Speaker 1:So there was no resolution Nope.
Speaker 2:And what ended up being, I guess, comical was a few years later that same person who had put us through that diversity issue had actually got promoted to the highest position he could get promoted to, and me and him actually sat in a room together. So that was a little it was strange. It was strange to see that, to know, you know how this person was and to see them to continue to go through the ranks and get promoted and their behavior was known to multiple people. So I thought I had got away from that problem. But it came back five years later and looked me in the face and you know, kind of some of those feelings came rushing back when I seen this guy. But it made me a better person for it, a better leader, and it definitely showed me how I should support people when they're in those positions where they don't feel safe.
Speaker 2:That's psychological safety, which I'll talk about that later in the workplace. But it was definitely some things that, looking back in hindsight, I didn't feel safe in that situation. But leadership at my new location did step up. They understood the story. I had told them everything and they addressed it the right way and I was appreciative of that. So shout out to Major Money Hushner Retired.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. So I guess I got to ask how did? How did you sit in the room?
Speaker 2:Through all of it, looking this person in the face. We went through an entire training meeting, so about 90 minutes of being in the room this person couldn't say a word to him. Blood was boiling. But you know, I had a different job at that time. You know, as much as you want to stand up and be your own superhero and be a super advocate, there's a time and a place for everything. It was the post-meeting conversation where things came to a head. I definitely maintained all my military composure because that's what I needed to do at that point. I did respect the rank and I didn't understand, like, what we were getting into. But there was somebody in the room that outranked me who was like absolutely not, we don't play those games here. So he addressed it on his level, which I'm very appreciative of.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's wild. So on this podcast, I want to make sure we're sending listeners that are tuning in for specific topics, specific things to go and do. I don't want these to be generalities and you know a commander's call. You see some slides and you walk out and you're not really sure what exactly. Some slides and you walk out and you're not really sure what exactly. So I'd like to ask do you have any specific strategies or practices that an organization can implement to really embrace and embody these concepts that we're talking about?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely so. I didn't address this when I talked earlier about who I am. So I was a master resiliency trainer for the Air Force too. So when we talk about mental fitness, I kind of have a deeper dive in this, along with the DEI aspect, and one of the things I noticed when we're talking about both topics is you're trying to influence a culture change, right, because we're having a conversation about topics that normally in the military don't get addressed.
Speaker 2:The military you're designed to be, or, you know, even in your workspace you're that cookie cutter person, right? We all wear the same uniform for a reason. We have, you know, haircut standards for a reason, right, so we kind of remove that individuality from the workspace. However, we're all individuals. And then when you're talking about mental health, one of those things like or mental fitness, that's one of those things like is becoming that's a new topic, a new conversation to be discussed on a wider scale. It's becoming more acceptable to discuss mental fitness in different spaces now because the younger generation embraces it, which I love. I think it's really cool. They're the voices of change.
Speaker 2:But when you're trying to influence an entire culture, such as the military or a major corporate office. You're talking about a culture change. You're talking about where everyone has to be respected as an individual and not just an airman or a uniform or a job, like you're. You're a person and, yes, you're going to have some issues, like you're gonna not wake up and feel great one day or, you know, you may have something going on in your life that, uh, may not make you think the most positive through that time and we have to understand that, um, that's okay. So the strategies that I tell people is, first thing, as, as a leader, if you're in any position of management, have a team like that toolkit I discussed earlier. Have a team and that team needs to be as diverse as you can get it and I'm talking about gender, I'm talking about education level, I'm talking about jobs. Like your team should not look like you, right, that toolkit that you're using, this team that you're using to get these two topics, these strategies, out. They need to be diverse and they need to be bought in. They actually have to believe in it. We're not just checking a box. I was on the diversity team or I was on the mental fitness team. Get somebody that actually believes in it, somebody has been through those issues, somebody that has a total understanding of what happens when these systems fail, and then you need to start to influence the culture change.
Speaker 2:One of the things I said is and I learned this from a previous commander like if we talk about things enough that we start to talk about it around the water cooler, we've influenced change, and that's one of those things. So if we only talk about this through a slideshow once every six months, right during this observation week or this observation day, are people really embracing this? But if I talk about diversity in casual conversation four times a month, and I do that for six months straight, and then eventually other people like, oh, hey, I read an article about this, or hey, man, I heard a podcast about that, or you know, I read a book about this right Now, I'm influencing change. I'm actually influencing that culture because I know for the least, you know for the next couple of years just, you know, military wise, these people are going to be stationed with me and I know for at least two or three years I've influenced this culture to say like, hey, we do talk about diversity and inclusion here and we do talk about mental fitness here and that's that strategy and you want to perpetuate that. So you start to put that into like your traditions and your policies and stuff like that, and then you keep that going and it almost becomes like a legacy thing and then that's how you influence it.
Speaker 2:And if you can influence 40 people, those 40 people may influence 20 people. You're growing and then that's how you influence it. And if you can influence 40 people, those 40 people may influence 20 people. You're growing, and then that becomes a thing and you've changed that culture. So that's it. Like I can't tell them to buy a certain program or read a certain book, because people do that all the time. I already read a book. That doesn't make you an expert, right, that's your one individual interpretation of something you read or you know something you heard on the podcast or something like that, which somebody else may interpret completely different. But if you have this entire team working together, bringing ideas and showing that they feel included and involved, I think that's a better way to get those messages out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. And I think one thing that's really important and cool, I guess, from the military we look at PCS. Sometimes it's good or bad, but I guess in this particular case, if you do impact those 40 at the water cooler, those 40 are going to go on to move and then they, you know, go to 40 different bases and then, you know, just gets better and better. So that's awesome. I want to ask another question, kind of expanding. You've touched on it a little bit, but how do these concepts intersect and kind of overlap with mental health?
Speaker 2:Well, the best way to say it right, if I don't feel included, if I don't feel respected, if I don't feel that I belong, it's going to affect me mentally. Because that's all that people want, right? Human nature we want to feel respected, we want to feel that we belong. So when you have a DI program that's lacking or non-existent, there's going to be some negative things that exist in that workspace that will affect the mental health of the employees. Will they ever come to you and let you know? Probably not.
Speaker 2:You'll probably hear about it on the exit survey. You'll probably hear you know an HR complaint, but on a daily basis. For it to be effective, to, to get that feedback to you know the stakeholders that need to hear that. You probably won't get that. So it really has to come from the top. I really say that DEA is a top down process and a lot of people don't believe that. Like, oh, just influence you know the bottom 60, then that's going to be effective, but if the people at the top don't believe in it, it's not going to work. Um, so you can have, like what mental with mental fitness, right, we were talking about a lot about the uh, but mental fitness is the same way. Uh, you can get a couple people to buy into it, but sometimes you need to get those big fish to really buy into it so that it can become a viable and, like long lasting program.
Speaker 1:So absolutely, I saw somebody I forgot who it was, I think it was a commander somewhere. They'd post their calendar on their door of their office when they'd be out for different things and actually put like their counseling session hey, I'm going to swing by, talk to the counselor for a little bit and publicly posted it. So not only living it but also kind of putting it out there, like I'm going to go and talk to somebody and get some of these things off my chest and whatnot. So it's not only normal, but you know you can totally go and block some time and get over there. So that's a that's a good one to try to, you know, get the word out. I want to ask a question about outside of work. So we talked about out work. How does this impact people at home when they're on their own time?
Speaker 2:Go look in any of your like, poverty stricken areas. Right, look at where a lot of your mental health issues are coming from, your mental fitness issues. Look at the opportunities that people are given from these poverty stricken areas. And right, poverty stricken areas doesn't have a race. It just says like, hey, we don't have the money. Right, that's an equity issue. And look at how it affects the people that come out of that community. And I tell people that's the quickest snapshot that you can see like right, right, right through the low income areas of your town and then look at it, look at the problems that they have, and then right through the middle class neighborhood and then right through upper class neighborhood and then see where those, where those issues.
Speaker 2:You know what certain issues each one of those financial equitable areas have and you see it a lot. That's kind of why I went to advocating on this side, because I am trying to help those that may not have all the opportunities, that may not have the best resources. Try to get back on track. I guess that's just me being compassionate to the issues, but I understand them on a deeper level and it's a lot deeper than what people think it is. You can't fix a lot of these issues the intersection between the mental fitness and DE&I with the worksheet. You know it takes an entire culture, change of programs, support, financial support over decades for these to actually be effective and to try to like change the tide of things that's taking place.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Some cultural change. And then, you know, generation. They're going to have to flip over probably a couple of times to clear out some of this stuff. So, hopefully some good stuff for the future. Next question is you've worked at different locations and it sounds like you have, you know, a network of colleagues and things like that. Can you provide some examples of successful DE&I programs that have had a significant impact on the mental health of their members?
Speaker 2:So actually one of the things I did before I left the Air Force was I actually taught a DE&I program to future. I think they were tech sergeants, they're going to tech sergeant and we sat down I think it was 26 of them and I taught this course to them and it was about the first sacred inclusion. So two days, and really what it was is to say like hey, you guys all come from different backgrounds and you're getting ready to supervise people from different backgrounds. And we did talk about mental health and mental fitness and stuff like that in the course, because we talk about neurodivergency, because it happens, it's one of those things like neurodivergency is a hot topic. It's coming along. More people are realizing they're autistic, have ADHD, stuff like that. So really this course allowed them to sit and just learn about people without judgment without bias.
Speaker 2:We actually talked about unconscious bias. We picked some unconscious biases out for them so they understand like hey, the way you were raised affects how you see the world Like. But you have to remember now that you're a supervisor, you have to be one of the most neutral people in the world. You have to just hear things out and hear facts and not be opinionated and not be biased. Um was a success. And then I did a. I actually do consultation work.
Speaker 2:I helped a law enforcement agency out in Nebraska. They reached out to me and said, hey, we have a diversity issue. It's like okay, lay it on me. And the guy was like you know, we're 90% white male between 25 and 55. I said, okay, what's the problem? He was like our town is 98% Hispanic and I was like okay. And I was like well, how's the you know, how's the community relationship? And he was like it's terrible, okay, cool. So sat down, did a program. First thing I did was like hey, man, y'all need to go sit down with the leaders in the community, go down to community colleges, look at who your competition is for recruits.
Speaker 2:And what ended up happening? Over six months, we were able to get them into their most diverse recruiting classes they've ever had to include race and gender, which in so put better jobs back in the community, which in so put better jobs back in the community. The community was actually policing themselves now, which increased the trust, which increased the communication. The community was more willing to help the police force because they didn't see them as the outsiders coming in. Every time they see the police they're just taking family members. So that was a success. I was really proud on that one. I still have a project in the works I'm not talking about that one, cause I think I had to go up for like the state vote or something but I did a project out in Alaska. That was really huge. I was running through the wickets right now but, um, those were successes to me so so for the police force, what was the actual plan?
Speaker 1:Was it recruiting or advertising, or how did you take it from one to another?
Speaker 2:um, well, really, like it was for one, one of the first things we had to do was go back and repair, like, the trust and communication in the community. Um, I asked, I said, hey, who are your local leaders in the community? Guy was like I don't know what you're talking about. It's like outside of, like your local government, city council, stuff like that. Who are your community leaders? I don't know. Well, hey, first thing I'm going to tell you to do, and I gave them like a list of challenges, like go to your local Catholic church and sit down and talk to the priests, go and figure out, you know, like, where do the community leaders hang out? What are some of the issues in the community?
Speaker 2:And once we address all these small issues, the next thing was like, hey, now we need to look at our recruitment tactics. So I was like tell me how you recruit. And the guy laid it on me and I was like okay, here's all the critiques with that. This is how you DE and I your recruitment efforts. And then it was like a monthly checkup, like, hey, how are we doing on these challenges? Where are we Like, hey, do you guys have a scholarship fund available where you can give $500 to a graduating senior or somebody coming from a community college that qualifies to be an officer.
Speaker 2:Do you have anything? They're like no, we never thought about that. So it's just constantly just chipping in and feeding advice to them until they're like, hey, this is actually working. We're getting people out of the community now. They're not running off to the big cities Because this is a smaller town. They weren't running off to the big cities to go be police officers. They actually stayed local. They got women on the police force and, um, it was actually a success story. So that's probably that that's awesome.
Speaker 1:So how do you come up with some of those ideas that just through, you know the different programs you come in or you just kind of go back to work and go to meetings and ask for ideas or just all come up to you.
Speaker 2:They. A lot of people come to me and they say, hey, here's our problem, and I go OK, cool, how much time, energy, effort, money are you trying to put into this?
Speaker 1:Because it's important.
Speaker 2:If you only have twelve hundred dollar budget and you're trying to get something implemented in 30 days, I'm going to get you a product. Is it going to be the product of somebody that has two years and an ample amount of money? Absolutely not, but it gives a starting point and, like I said, I do some of my work is going to be pro bono, because I believe in DEI and mental fitness more than I believe in getting money like getting paid for it. Because if I can do a positive influence and I affect the entire city with just my ideas, because I shared something with you that I know about being a social matter expert, I'm fine with that. I don't need the money Like I can see the success in in my work, so that's fine.
Speaker 1:It's worth more yeah absolutely, that's awesome. So I want to ask you've left the military, been out a couple of years Now, you've had a chance to work for different places. What does the military do good or bad and what does the civilian sector do good or bad, or kind of the compromise or comparison between the two, and where can they work on it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so in the military, like, you don't get to pick your coworkers Whoever comes through the door on orders is who you get, and then you spend time learning about them and you kind of already have like your set rules right. That culture is already established and they're very. The military is very slow to change. You don't see that in the civilian sector a lot, they're very efficient. Don't see that in the civilian sector a lot, they're very efficient. Unfortunately well, not unfortunately I work for the state, so things are still kind of bureaucratic, like the military is.
Speaker 2:But we do change a lot faster Budget-wise not so much, but definitely in ideas. If it's cheap or free and it makes sense and people buy in on it. Like we make changes fairly rapidly. So I do appreciate that. Um, I work with the most diverse team now as a civilian and I've ever worked with in the military. Um, literally everybody from every walk of life is available uh, on all our teams whenever I go to put projects together. So it's really cool. I don't have to go and like build that team because my team's already diverse enough that I can go like hey, here's an idea. What do you guys think? I guess communication to communication in the military is a lot better, comparing it to no-transcript, but here people are like oh man, you sent me an email six months ago.
Speaker 2:I knew nothing about that. Oh, you did a webinar. I wasn't even paying attention to that. So that's like the only changes. They're not major like grievances or anything like that, but definitely something I noticed when I'm trying to influence a major culture change.
Speaker 1:So, ok, there was one question I was going to ask, but I got sidetracked. Of course, too many thoughts in the mind. But I want to ask you, what are three tips or three tactics that you would give to a new supervisor, three tactics that you would give to a new supervisor, so you get the new supervisor, you got the person that's shown up late or you know, got these things going on. What are those three actions?
Speaker 2:a supervisor, can take to be a good supervisor. One of the first things I would do is tell them to have a genuine conversation. Take off the supervisor hat and just be a genuine person and go hey, what's going on? Build that trust, build that rapport, because there may be some stuff going on behind the scenes that you know nothing about. Because everybody shows up to work with that great face on, you know, and everybody, life is together and we're all financially sound and everybody back home is doing amazing. And that's not the truth.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I did when I was a supervisor is I got to know everybody on a personal level. I know everyone doesn't have that luxury to do that, but I've always been a people person. Tell me what's going on. Let me know if you're having daycare issues or you don't have the most reliable car or you live 50 minutes away from town because that's the only place you could afford for your apartment. Cool, you know what I'll do. I'll make some adjustments. Hey, you don't have to be to work at 8. Be to work at 9. You're not working 9 to 5. I'm still going to get eight hours of sound work from you and I don't have to worry about you being late at work every day, like it's just, it's just so small thing. So genuine conversation. Be open minded. People go through things. The world changes constantly. Be open-minded to those differences, those nuances in people, because it's going to happen.
Speaker 2:Everybody's not going to be the same. No matter what agency you work in, even in the military, you expect everybody to be the same. We all went through the same struggles to get here. But as soon as you leave basic training and you go back to the world, you're totally different people. You know, like all those things come back. Equity issues come back, the financial issues come back, the family issues come back, stuff like that. So just be open minded to people, hear them out and I guess I said a genuine conversation. Be open minded and I like to use the term give people grace. It's one of the things I've definitely learned, like towards the end of my career, is give people grace, because sometimes we build expectations on how we believe situations should go, often, um, and when they don't meet our, our expectations, um, military wise, you know, you kind of let people have it hey man, I wanted this from you, um, but sometimes we you kind of let people have it hey man, I wanted this from you. But sometimes we don't communicate our messages clear.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we don't get all the details out or we have the expectation this person knows exactly what we want and how we want it, and a lot of things get lost in translation. So give people grace and make sure you don't take your project up like an hour before the deadline. Try to pick it up like two days prior. So that's what I would say and that works in both diversity, equity, inclusion and in mental fitness. With those three things, those authentic conversations, being open-minded and giving people grace.
Speaker 1:Those are perfect. I do have one question on the first one. I guess I got to play a little bit devil's advocate just so I can understand and everyone can understand. Sometimes it feels like when you make the adjustment, for one person it feels like the right thing, and it probably is the right thing, but other people start to feel a certain kind of way and, as we're talking about fairness and equity and things like that, how do you see that play out sometimes?
Speaker 2:But for me personally what I've done because I have had to do. You know, hey, I have to put this guy on the tiniest project. Well, he's neurodivergent and I can't give him a two week long project. It'll never get done. But I can give you a two week long project because I know to get done.
Speaker 2:So I handle individuals as individuals and I let them know, like, hey, I may not share this guy's business as to why he's only given a one week project or a three day project, but I'll let you know, like, hey, I use him for his specialty and what he's able to produce and I use you for something totally different. Both of you bring excellent products to the table, but you can bring me a Ferrari. He's going to bring me a Dodge Neon. It's still a car, but I'm going to get something of quality here and I'm going to get something of you know, usefulness from here and it's. I'm very selective when I do that with people, though I don't give everybody like, oh, no, for the most part, you know, 90% of the time I'm going to try to have everybody operate as a team, but I do respect people's individuality and I do make adjustments for them when necessary.
Speaker 1:And I think that goes back to the trust. If you've established that trust and you've done what you said you're going to do all those times, like when they do have a few of those things that seem out of the norm, like hey, you know, I've always been there before. Like why would you know, I'm not trying to slight you or anything if I've always been there before? So rely on the trust from before. Right and has been there before.
Speaker 2:So rely on the trust from before. Right, and I've. My motto has always been you're only as strong as the weakest link on your team. I've always been that way and you, you've seen me right. I'm going to take the guy that the squeaky wheel and I'm going to put time into him.
Speaker 2:But I'll tell my my fast, fast charger, hard charger guy hey, you're doing excellent and I really don't have to do anything with you because you're so amazing and I know it sounds crazy and people are like why would you tell them that? Because I don't want them to feel like they're not getting the attention they need. But this person over here, we really need to bring them up and at least get them to where we're comfortable with them operating. I call that the zero. Like if I can get them to zero, we're going to be all right and then I can build into a team. I'm still going to pour into my hard charger and my shining stars, but the squeaky wheel needs us and that's where I'm going to put my energy for now, until he's not the squeaky wheel or she's not the squeaky wheel.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Okay. Next question I think you touched on it, but just make sure it's on the right page. Anything, what would you say is the most common myth or misconception behind de and I?
Speaker 2:that everything is about race and gender it's not. It is not so we are complex, complicated humans yes, um, but I think it's one of those easy things to cue on when you say oh, I'm, he's talking about diversity, he has to be talking about race. No, I'm not, he has to be talking about race?
Speaker 2:No, I'm not. Or he has to be talking about gender. No, I'm not. I want to know why everybody on the board all went to the same school. There's tons of different options that come into play, but I question it. I don't want to shake it up, I just want you to acknowledge through an unconscious bias hey, we didn't acknowledge this. Like okay, everybody on the board has the same haircut, or something like that. Like I ask questions because if you're going to answer that question and you can fix that issue, so perfect.
Speaker 1:Okay, next one. This is a softball. I'm going to crush this one. Can you communicate the importance that leaders have on DE&I and mental health?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, and I found this out at the very end of my career, which was the end of my military career, as you talked about. I got access to calendars from my commanders and I saw that they had their counseling sessions on their calendars, counseling sessions on their calendars and that gave me the opportunity to have conversations with them about mental fitness and mental health and MRT and stuff like that, resiliency training and stuff like that. And they became intrigued, a lot of projects that I had. So once I knew I had to buy in from my leaders on certain programs and certain initiatives to even declare include diversity and inclusion. They had me come and speak on it at one of our lunch and learns.
Speaker 2:It was easier to have those conversations with them and it was easier to say, hey, like you're going to be in a room with this person, I've noticed that you kind of lacks this, can you drop, you know, like a small, you know elevator pitch or something like that. And it gave me an opportunity to start to venture out across the base and give more information out. But because I had leaders that actually believed in what I was teaching and actually saw some and I actually even someone like pulled me offline. I was like hey, man, you talked about some stuff I had no clue about, and I really appreciate that, because you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting the military, how we're so hung up on titles and rank and things like that, obviously for structure and professionalism and things like that. But I had a co-worker. He was working on this project for like a year and couldn't get any help from some other agency you need help with, and he moved into a new position that was more you know illustrious or whatnot, and he shot an email to follow up with his new signature block and it happened the same day. It's like huh, you're working on that for so long and just the title and the block.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I dealt with that. I was a master sergeant but I was also the senior enlisted leader of my unit, which was an anomaly. It doesn't happen that way often. So what happened was I stopped putting Master Sergeant and started putting Senior Enlisted Leader in the squadron, and things were getting done within hours, which used to take weeks and months. So I definitely understand that struggle. But then again, it's one of those things people see that and they're like oh, this guy's different, he's still the same guy, he just has a different title.
Speaker 1:So that's wild. Okay, I want to pass along some more advice from you to our listeners. So if there's someone out there right now they're like, hey, I'd love to go to work on Monday, tomorrow and start working on some DE&I principles or trying to work on a working group or something like that, what's something someone could take and start working on this week, this month or maybe in the upcoming year?
Speaker 2:I would say reach out to an expert For Air Force. It's going to be your EEO office, eco Opportunity. They're going to have all the things that I have and all the tools that I have, and they actually have the budget and the funding to keep those programs going. Usually they're smaller in stature as far as shop size, so they're always looking for volunteers or people that's willing to help out. It's a great career on the backside, so start there.
Speaker 2:Get involved in those heritage committees that you have on base. I actually was not just in the African-American Heritage Council, I pretty much went to all of them because I learned more and it gave me an opportunity to network, um, take advantage of any little seminars, especially like um, like listening to ted talks on like dni and stuff like that. There's a lot of stuff out there. Linkedin is a great resource. Uh, there's a lot of di experts out there and they're willing to share everything with you. They may make you buy a book, but that's that's just kind of how they operate in that space.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of experts out there that's willing to share their experiences and their opportunities with people on a free level. It doesn't have to be anything major, but just to get you involved and to get you understanding. And it's a lot easier now to get DEI training. You don't have to go and get a master's degree anymore. You can go get a graduate certificate and actually be involved every day in projects. So some are fairly short, but if that's what you want to do, you can start there.
Speaker 1:Awesome, okay. Last interview question what do you see for the future DEI, or which way is the trend going?
Speaker 2:I'll be honest, it isn't a negative trend right now. We are backing away from it. Unfortunately, the synergy that we had on the backside of the summer of 2020 has waned. It's not an everyday topic, it's not on the news. A lot of states have kind of eroded away at DEI hey, we're taking away from this. There's the whole CRT argument. Dei hey, we're taking away from this. There's the whole CRT argument. So it is moving backwards and the private sector is moving forward a little bit because there are a DEI report card out there that will show you how each company is actually contributing to DEI efforts. So some companies really brought into that, other companies not so much. Um, mental health and mental fitness. I really can't give you an idea on that moving forward just because, again, people view it as a individual health issue um more so than it is like dei, where there's a company or a cultural change.
Speaker 1:so okay, and then I want to give you an opportunity. One final message or takeaway. How would you summarize it all?
Speaker 2:the world every day. There's a major war right now. There's a huge DEI issue, a huge mental fitness issue because of the images just coming across and the messages and the propaganda and everything that's associated with it, and people are suffering in silence again on this one, but just be genuine in your conversation. Try to have those conversations to understand. If you are having those conversations and engaging with your co-workers, just try to understand. You're not placing judgment, you're not placing blame, you're not apologizing for ancestors, you're just learning. So just be genuine in your efforts. Um, and I think, uh, the world would be a better place involving the uh and mental fitness I think that's one thing that's really odd.
Speaker 1:I feel like with older generations and things like that, there's this feeling that you need to feel bad. You don't have to feel bad, learn, educate, you can grow, you can change. And that's another thing I think is odd. It feels like sometimes people are like if I thought that way, I always need to think that way or I'll be a hypocrite. I don't think that's a hypocrite. Growing and becoming a better person is not a hypocrite.
Speaker 2:That's right. Evolving and changing, even as I went really like pigeonholing myself into the topics that I was bringing to the table yeah, I can fix my community, but my city's hurting. So as I expanded my knowledge and really got to understand what diversity inclusion was, on the whole, I actually like stepped back away from my individualism and look at the world in a much broader scope. So that helped.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thank you for coming out, marcus. I'd like to summarize a few other topics. Really, just being a decent human, I mean, I guess that's oversimplified. But the other part I will say is that reflect and Marcus kind of touched on a little bit of research as a supervisor or whatever, you are trying to figure out what actually happened. I think that really gives the foundation and kind of starts that discussion instead of oh, you're late, you're in trouble, you're the worst, you're lazy, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Starting with the research and stopping and reflecting. If you're a coworker, whoever you are, we touched about supervision. But just being a coworker, sometimes you start to say things about someone because you believe you know and then that kind of ripples outward. So make sure you're finding out what actually happened. Do a little research. Don't become a detective, but try and understand where someone's coming from that perspective, how they were raised, long list of things. But get to a better understanding before we start judging. I'd like to encourage the listeners to share the thoughts. Shoot me an email, hit me up on Facebook. I got the Buzzsprout page for the podcast and then YouTube videos are rolling out as I get them up. But I just want to say I love you all, see ya.
