MindForce: Mental Fitness & Life Stories!
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MindForce: Mental Fitness & Life Stories!
Unlocking Resilience: Leadership, Mental Toughness, and Personal Growth with CMSgt Joey Meininger
Unlock the secrets of resilient leadership as we sit down with a distinguished military veteran who has dedicated 25 years to serving his country. In this thought-provoking episode, we explore his remarkable journey from a military brat to a pivotal role as Command Chief in Japan during the COVID-19 crisis. Our guest shares how showcasing the human side of leadership through digital media has been vital in connecting with personnel and their families, despite the constraints of time and responsibility. Discover the challenges and triumphs that come with such a demanding role and the motivation behind starting a podcast to share these experiences.
Understanding resilience and personal growth is crucial for anyone facing life's inevitable challenges. Learn about the balance between maintaining an active mind and achieving personal milestones such as advanced degrees and certifications. Our guest delves into the importance of mental fitness, meditation, and the generational differences in dealing with stress and resilience within the military. We also share poignant stories of loss and survival, reflecting on the deeply human aspect of military life and the significance of mental health and positive affirmations in fostering a supportive environment.
This episode is a treasure trove of insights on building mental toughness and the role of life experiences in shaping resilience. From setting and achieving daunting physical fitness goals to the power of mentorship and overcoming imposter syndrome, our conversation is both inspiring and practical. We also discuss the importance of vulnerability, self-reflection, and how to engage audiences on social media effectively. Whether you're looking to grow personally or professionally, this episode offers valuable advice and heartfelt stories that underscore the essence of resilience and personal growth. Join us for a journey that promises to enrich your understanding of leadership and mental fortitude.
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Hi, I'm your host, MindForcecom resiliency or mental toughness, so I'd like to give you the floor for some opening comments. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it. First off I'd like to just say thanks for inviting me to come do this. I know it's been quite a bit of a challenge to link up the timeline to get it to happen. So thanks for being persistent. I do appreciate it. So a little bit about me. Like you said, I am the one South Command Chief. I've been in the military now about 25 years. It'll be 25 years this summer. Career military guy, 20 years in the fire department. I did that first before doing this command chief gig. Second time doing the command chief gig. First one was in Masawa, japan. I did that for two years during COVID, so that was a challenge. And then came over here and, uh, enjoyed every ride. So military brat grew up all over the world. Don't really have a place, I call home.
Speaker 2:Um, my personal stuff. I'm married to my best friend. She was a firefighter as well. She did 10 years. Um, she got out. Uh, she did eight years. Sorry, she got out about 10 years ago, got three kiddos, my oldest isow. I am a local kid. I graduated from Walton Beach High School and this is my third time that I'm stationed back at Herbert Field. So Florida is really, I guess, what I would call home as close to home as can be for being a military guy.
Speaker 1:That's funny. I kind of struggle with the same thing Sometimes when people ask, and those icebreakers and whatnot, where's home? And I've lived in so many different places, I kind of say wherever my mom's at. So I guess that's my answer right now she's kind of the rock and the important part to me.
Speaker 1:So wherever she's at which, half the time she's with us visiting. So that's good, it's interesting. I always find it funny like the MEPS process kind of touching on that like you were talking about with your son, because when I came into meps I came in guaranteed air traffic and my roommate at the time he came in and he really wanted medical and so he wanted to be idmt or some type of med tech and there was a couple other guys that were joining at the same time that we knew from school and they had went to skill bridge and they had all these certificates and fire prevention and whatnot, you know, going down the fire route and he got fire and they didn't. So I was going to find it funny how the selection process comes out. These guys were well, well equipped but I guess the need wasn't there at that time or whatever it was, must've been something to do with the delayed entry program.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, that's awesome. I wanted to touch on something real quick. Thanks for coming out. You know, like you said, we finally got connected, which is great. But one of my favorite parts of interviewing leadership like I talked about with Josh White from Hero Front we kind of discussed this it's really cool to allow people to see you and understand you and really see the people that are behind the leadership. You see the people on the walls and you know the rank on the shoulders and things like that, and you know still have to remain. You know shoulders and things like that, and you still have to remain respectful and things like that.
Speaker 1:But people ultimately are people, and so I think the cool part about this digital media is being able to demonstrate that leaders are people too. So I did see you out at the Christmas tree lighting and so I thought it was super cool. You were running around trying to see everybody and I'm sure you wanted to see every single person there and probably want to see every single person face to face on base and really get a chance to know and understand the people, but that's just physically impossible. There's only one of you and you know so many people that are out there and in different remote locations and whatnot. So I think this gives ability to peek, you know, peek beyond the curtain and be able to see a little bit more about you. So thanks for coming out and making sure you were seeing people, even though you're about to depart here in a few months still getting out there and seeing everybody.
Speaker 2:But I wanted to give you a chance to ask me a question before we dive into the warmup. Yeah, you still got me. Yeah, okay, yeah, no, I appreciate that. I think it's. Uh, I do agree that you know social media. Over the last few years, uh, I've tried to connect with quite a few folks and it's, it's showing them. Um, you know, we do have a life outside the military and I often tell folks that, uh, you know it's, you gotta find that good, strike a balance. And if I'm not out there showing who I am outside the military, and, yeah, you can do all the great things and and be a person and I love to be joey as well as I love to be chief. So I think those opportunities to go out and see people with their families and and get to know them a little bit more on a personal level, uh, those are huge opportunities. Like you said, I don't always get to see every single person, but the opportunities I have to see as many as I can is pretty darn cool yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Um so, do you have any questions for me before we start?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think, uh, you know I'm always fascinated by the podcasters of the world, kind of what gets you, uh, what gets you motivated and started in this, um, so if you'd share a little bit about that, I'd appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. So I have a very active mind and I feel like if I'm idle I kind of go crazy. So I kind of continuously work on one thing or another. So I worked full-time, active duty up to eight years and got my bachelor's, was lucky enough and blessed enough to be able to commission, and then took a year break to really learn my job and make sure I understood that, then got my master's moved in, got my PMP. Those were like big milestones.
Speaker 1:I really wanted to check off the list and at that point I needed something to work on, keep myself busy before I drive my wife crazy. And so I really wanted to write a book. But I realized I really need to play to my strengths and I've been talking way too much my whole life. So it's funny. We moved this last summer here to Hurlburt and we drove cross country because we picked up our car from my sister in Vancouver, just outside of Seattle, and so we brought that car all the way down. And while I was home I took a quick peek at my report cards and just hilarious that they all say you know joy to have in class but talks way too much. And I always thought it was funny because they try to move me, which just was always, comically, I'll talk to anybody, so you put me next to him or her, or Billy or Sally or whatever, it doesn't really matter, I'm going to keep on talking. So I figured I should try to play to my strengths.
Speaker 1:And it is a nervous thing and it is, you know, kind of crazy putting yourself out into a public forum. But I feel like at some point you just have to kind of take the leap. And so I did reach out to Josh White, speaking to him earlier he runs the hero podcast out at Eglin here. I reached out to him from Okinawa, japan. I missed him once and then the second time he picked up and just amazing how there's so many good people out there told me what he uses and how he works through it and gave me the whole low down.
Speaker 1:As I'm going into a, you know, battle rhythm thing for an exercise I think there was like a wit meeting that morning. So I'm like driving to wit, I got all my gear like about to be put on and talking to Josh on the way in, so good people out there can really help you. You know, ease the transition, because it is a little scary, but knowing people are just there and wanting the best for everybody and not even competing, which I think is really cool. I've talked to a lot of different people in this space and no one's ever really like tried to put me down or anything. You know, give me ideas, give me feedback, and even though we're in the same space, I think everyone just wants the best for everybody and especially being in the mental fitness, uh, mind, mind space, I think it's a little difficult because it's something that's hard to talk about, but we need to talk about it. So we'll have some serious conversations and keep moving forward.
Speaker 2:No, I appreciate that and, yeah, I've seen his uh, his podcast. He's been out there quite a bit putting himself out there, so I appreciate all the perspectives that he brings as well absolutely.
Speaker 1:I mean, the core of the whole thing is just trying to work on and become better people and I feel like we do a really good job of that in the human, bodily, physical form, right. So we have the different pillars and things like that and we'll work out and we'll talk about reps and sets and you know, as people are walking around, they'll oh, I'm doing back and bys today, but no one. You know really. I mean, I think we're getting a little closer, but I don't hear a lot of like I'm gonna sit in the park and meditate, like that doesn't really happen, but that should be the same thing. Like how are you finding ways to better yourself? So today, talking about that resiliency? So it's just these things. You just put more tools in the toolbox. You'd rather have the tool before you need it yeah, it's um resiliency.
Speaker 2:You know we've been talking about it in the military for quite some time and um. What fascinates me, and I think what I'm trying to understand better and better, is the, you know, changing generations and how different generations become more resilient maybe easier than others, but I think that's where sometimes we struggle in the military is trying to understand the needs of all of our. You know we got quite a few different generations serving in the military, between our civilians to some sort of capacity. So how are we taking best care of our members? And until we understand, um how we all recharge, whatever that looks like, uh, I'm always just out there trying to get more information.
Speaker 1:That's a good point. Yeah, I remember when I was at Edwards a lot of people stayed there for the longest time. We'd be getting people having their 30 and 40 year pens. They worked at one single location for 40 years and so that person is wildly different than you know, someone that grew up and came up through COVID. So that's a really good point. So I'd like to move into the warmup. I'm going to steal a few questions from my interview with the Shogun Chief Command Chief Ronnie Woods. That was a great time, but I liked a few of those questions and it kind of fit with yours as you're going to exit here. So the first question, reflecting back on your time what were the highs and lows during this assignment?
Speaker 2:During this particular assignment. I mean the lows, to be honest with you. You know the reality of what we do from time to time and the amount of people that serve, with us losing people, right. So it's not just just, you know, recently with the gun, em 22 folks, uh, it's with. You know, we live on a busy highway, um, you know, unfortunately those type of things happen. So, um, some of those lows are helping people navigate through those things. And it's just the life stuff that we deal with when you have thousands of people that you're working with.
Speaker 2:So those were definitely lows. The highs have been week to week and day to day. I mean it's not a high necessarily, isn't something that you feel super like you achieved something great. It's someone telling you you said something and they took it back. It's that. It's someone telling you you said something and they took it back. It's that note that you have on your desk that somebody left for you that said, hey, thanks for thinking of me, or thanks for you know, uh, recognizing me, or or thanks for what you said this one time, but you know it changed the path of my life. So those those highs come so often. Um, so really, there, there hasn't been a culminating high in this particular assignment, but a bunch of little ones that just keep my bucket full.
Speaker 1:That's interesting too. I feel like there's a lot of times where you don't even know either. I remember I had an incident where I was out of Kadena and I was the flight commander of logistics out there, and so I had a larger flight and we were going through COVID like you had mentioned a lot of challenges out there. And so I had a larger flight and we were going through COVID like you had mentioned a lot of challenges with that and so the rules were changing so rapidly with quarantine and where you could go and what you could do. We had different quiet time hours and whatnot, and so the best thing I could come up with is every Friday we'd meet real quick and I try to get the information out before the weekend, because sometimes it would change throughout the week and I didn't want people to get in trouble.
Speaker 1:So we do that and I'd end the meeting every time with I love you all and I know that term kind of freaks people out, but I think there's different forms of love obviously your spouse and your kids and things like that but wanting the best for everyone is really, I think, all that boils down to. And so we had a guy he ended up admin separating. But he caught me right outside the holiday party as he was leaving on his last day and his brother had passed away and his brother was his best friend and he said I was in one of the darkest moments of my life and you telling me that you loved me was really important and helped me get through that. That was a year before that, a year, so a year I didn't know. I just went out there and was trying to do the best that I could, and sometimes you don't get any feedback or it's super delayed feedback, but you just have to do the right thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I feel sometimes what I worry about more often than not, as you know, words and actions are so full. You'll often hear about times where you made an impact like that, where you got it right, where you said something that it resonated with somebody and they thought about it, you know, and had the courage to tell you about a year later. But in that same vein, some of our words in a negative light can stick for quite some time and normally we don't get that feedback.
Speaker 1:And you didn't mean anything by it more than likely, right.
Speaker 2:You didn't mean anything by it, right? So that's what I've noticed in these positions as I've climbed, with a little bit of more folks that I'm in charge of and opportunity to speak to a lot of people. It's just words really matter and you got to be super calculated in what you say because taking it the wrong way again you can. You can turn somebody off pretty quick or maybe they're having a bad day. You're gonna make them have a worse day just by some words that are poor choice to buy you.
Speaker 1:But yeah, good point yeah, that it's interesting too, because one thing I was going to mention earlier we just had the helicopter crash there in southern california and then the gundam as and one thing that just always drives me nuts, and maybe it shouldn't and I should just let it go, but every time it comes out in the news it always says routine training there's nothing routine. If you can possibly lose your life at work, that's not a routine day. That's not like scanning papers, that's not, you know, routine just doesn't feel right. It feels like it's trying to be minimized in that thing. If you can lose your life, that's a yeah, it's something else. Yeah, good point. So I'd like to ask a few questions about mental health, because that's kind of the focus of the podcast. So did you have conversations about mental health growing up? Was that a part of your life?
Speaker 2:So did you have conversations about mental health growing up? Was that a part of your life? No, you know, I don't. I don't feel like we really triangulated that term or resiliency, like. I feel like growing up that wasn't a thing, and not that we didn't care about mental health or not that we didn't do some of the same things we're doing now to take care of one another. It's just, uh, I think, as probably a country and my big brother about something, and it wasn't necessarily. Well, I'm having this conversation because I'm having some mental health issues. It's just things we did to cope with our problems and, as I think we grew as a country over the last couple of decades, I think we have focused on it, but I just think we're we're terming it as something different, but I don't think that we've we've ever thought mental health was not a concern. It's just you have clinical mental health things and then you have, you know, feel good mental health things that have been all around us for a long, long time.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think one core thing I've mentioned on other episodes, but you know I'll continue to foot stomp it is that continual care. You know, trying to take care of things before they become the worst day. I made that joke in another one. Can you imagine going to the gym and just run on the treadmill once? Like no, you do it three times a week and you make sure your cardio is okay. You don't just wait until it's really bad and before you start working on it. So definitely schedule some appointments and or however you, you know, recharge and keep up with it. Now, um, someone asked one random question just to you know, throw a wrench in it. What are your thoughts on warrant officers?
Speaker 2:Well, that's funny. I just got that question yesterday from a young airman and you know, if there's opportunities for us to serve in a different capacity I mean, our other services have been doing it for quite some time. You know, we we dabbled in the Air Force a little bit about I don't know many years ago when we had enlisted pilots for RPAs and such. So I think there is definitely an appetite for certain AFSCs or certain jobs that maybe are harder to fill, that require a little bit more I don't even want to say leadership skills, but a little bit more authority that enlisted won't be able to do to where we give that authority and uh, and it'll be at the warrant officer program. I'm really curious to see, uh, what, what and how they roll it out. If they do roll it out, I'm going to go to AFA this week and next week and we'll see if it's a topic of uh, of conversation.
Speaker 2:But I think people get confused sometimes about the warrant officer programs and they just think you know, if you're an enlisted member and you got some degrees, you're going to be a warrant officer and I don't think that's the point of the program. I think certain like being a fire guy. I don't know and again, this is just Joey Meininger's opinion, not Chief Meininger's opinion but I don't know that we need warrant officers in the fire department, like we have enlisted members and senior enlisted leaders that have been doing it for quite some time. Yeah, most of them are degree holding positions, but I don't believe we need more authority than we already have and what's been given to us through directives and policy. So I don't think it fits in our AFSC, and so the challenge is going to be to find which AFSCs and which jobs those warrant officer positions actually fit into.
Speaker 1:Are there ones that jump out at you that would be at the top.
Speaker 2:I mean not that we can decide right, but I mean RPA pilot is the one right Like um, that's the one to me. And if we start I mean the army, you fly helicopters at a warrant officer. Uh, as we start looking at different start I mean the Army, you fly helicopters at a warrant officer. As we start looking at different platforms, I saw an article the other day about a new helicopter training squadron that just got stood up. That could be an option. I mean, do we dabble into some of our pilot shortages with warrants too? Like, if you look at aircraft, maybe the navigator on the aircraft could be a warrant, I don't know.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. I'm curious with the total in-strength and not being able to grow, where the slots come from. I guess they'd be pulled from CGOs and senior NCOs. Yeah, okay, we're going to move into the main topic for today. So mental toughness for young adults, so the firstness for young adults. So the first thing I'd like to ask is, I guess, an intro into resilience. I feel like it's kind of become a buzzword. It shows up at all the commander's calls. Can you share a personal story with us about a challenging situation and how you kind of fought through that difficult situation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know I've got tons of stories of a fire stuff in my career that have been, you know, challenging situations where where is it, you know, resiliency comes into play and you just got through it. But I think I think initially what ended, you know, had us talking in the first place was kind of my crazy week of uh, of things that I had fitness-wise, and a lot of that was mental toughness and resilience, and I'll kind of walk through that week real quick. I didn't really say it in my intro, but I love physical fitness and not just fitness. I just love challenges. So if I don't have a challenge or something that I'm aiming towards, I just find myself in a routine or a rut where I'm kind of doing the same thing every day, maybe not pushing myself out of my comfort zone. Uh, so from a 42nd birthday in November, uh, I decided I was going to go, uh, run a 50 K and uh, I've never up to that point. Um, probably when I made the decision three or four months prior, I've never ran a marathon. Uh, I think I might've ran 10 miles or something in my life before. That Totally wasn't planned. I just woke up in the morning and when I ran those 10 miles just kind of ran it. You can see my route was all over the place. So I deliberately decided that I was going to try to run a 50K, because I just figured that was harder than a normal marathon. And as I started training up to that 50K, that goal Look like it was pretty achievable and I didn't think that it was pushing me enough outside of my comfort zone. So probably six, six or so weeks before I was like OK, this whole week is going to be a crazy week and I do a lot of Murph's. I usually do one or so a week. I was going to do a 50K on a Monday, a triple Murph on a Wednesday, a 10K Thursday and Friday, and then drive down to South Florida and do three Spartans over the weekend. And I know it's crazy. And the reason why I wanted to do it in that particular order was I felt that if I got the hardest thing knocked out, it would be the hardest thing to do the next day and get up and keep going. Uh, if I waited to do the 50 K at the end and work my way up progressively with easier events, then it wouldn't have been as tough. So I wanted to start off the week completely drained, like everything I had was in the 50 K. So everything after that 50 K was just hard. That's all it was. And uh, so that was my plan.
Speaker 2:Um, so I went into the 50 K. Everything worked, um, during the 50 K, I had some pain in my knee and, uh, I wore a brace. My wife, uh, took care of me. She came out and brought me a brace in the middle of the run and um, what had happened is my foot overcompensated for my knee and my hamstring injury. So my foot was pulling up more each step, which doesn't sound like a big deal, but if you do it for 30 plus miles, it's a big deal.
Speaker 2:Um, so I found myself on the Tuesday, which I already had intended on, taking a rest day, uh, in severe pain where I can barely walk. And um, I looked at the rest of the week and again, I already had plenty. I was going down South to do the other races, like it was happening. I just didn't know, you know how it was going to happen. And uh, the Wednesday came around, where I was going to go do the three Murphs, uh, in the morning, and, um, I hobbled out of bed and my legs still hurt, of course. I took the Samochan and all that stuff and and I didn't know how I was going to do all those those Murphs in a row that day. I didn't, I didn't understand, like how it was going to happen, but I couldn't let myself, uh, give up and fail, like I thought, you know what? I just have to drive to the gym, like that's the first step.
Speaker 2:Um, so I did all my things, like I normally do in the morning. Uh, I ate a little meal before I worked out, drove over there, and the whole time I'm driving I'm thinking to myself, like how I can't even barely walk, like how am I going to get it done? And uh, but I, I put my vest on, I just did all my stuff and I started walking on that track and I probably walked about a quarter of a mile, um, and I was like, okay, I got a quarter mile. I mean only, you know, only five miles, and five and three quarters left, right Cause that's what the triple Murph ended up being, the six miles and uh, and I just didn't stop.
Speaker 2:And when you're in the moment, you don't think about it, you're just trying to get to the next thing. Like what's the next thing? So to me I was like, after this quarter mile I'm going to try to at least heavily walk for a quarter mile and eventually uh up that six miles with a slow, slow jog and I still finished I think I don't know three hours of some change total. And then it was like that for the rest of the week. It was every day waking up. How am I going to do another 10K the next day when I can barely walk?
Speaker 2:I'm going to do it again my whole seven, eight hour trip down to Sebring, florida. I'm driving thinking like I can barely push the gas pedal. How am I going to start the Spartan? And it was the same thing every day. I just wake up like I normally do. I put my brace on, I tighten it. Each day I was getting more and more swollen, um, but I just I finished it.
Speaker 2:And you know, even inside those Spartans there was challenge. It was like like this whole week was supposed to happen to me to see how tough I was. Uh, even during my long Spartan, when it was like an 18 miler, uh, I had trained for that for quite some time and so I brought all the gels and all the salts and all the electrolyte stuff I needed. And you know, my plan was to do that every three or four miles. On mile three, when I went to do my first kind of rehab for lack of better terms on my nutrition, all my stuff fell out of my pocket. So there was nothing and I had 15 miles left. And uh, well, what are you going to do? Right, like you're not going to quit? I already drove all the way down there. Like I'm going to do it, and, uh, and that's, that's the key to to, I think, um, to all resilience right Like.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we don't know how we're going to get something done and we can sit back, like I could have sat in my car that morning and I could have stared at the track. I'm like, hey, I don't know how I'm going to do this. I could have called for help and said, hey, what do I do? If I call a doctor, they probably say, stop doing what you're doing. But it just takes the first step Right Like. And then you realize, I, my foot's not going to fall off. Like it's not, I'm not going to do irreversible damage, like it's, it's okay.
Speaker 2:And I think too often, um, whatever adversity we face, um, it's too daunting. And we look at it and we're like we don't, I don't know how to tackle this, I don't know how to get out of this hole, and we just kind of sit there and we stare at it and we hope that someone's going to help us out or reach a hand in, or whatever it may be. But a lot of times it's on us to just try. You got to try something. And I think that's where we fail too often in being resilient is some, adversity is a lot, it's challenging.
Speaker 1:And we just don't think we can get out of it. Yeah, I think that's definitely true, and something that I just find odd is it seems like people want resiliency but they don't want the hard work that goes into it. You don't get it for free, you don't get it easily, it doesn't magically show up on your door. And it makes me think of two things. As you were talking through that, I remember an interview with a person going through Navy SEAL training and I wish I could remember his name. But they were asking him how he got through and he was saying I just thought of the next meal. That was his thing the whole time. He's like get to lunch, okay, cool, and so he's freezing. He's on the beach, just like, worst day of your life, worst hour of your life, he's like, okay, I'll just get dinner and then breakfast, and so he just next meal, and so that was one thing I thought of. And the other thing I thought of was I think it's James clear atomic habits, I think that's his name.
Speaker 1:That book I really like. One thing that he mentions in there is you make a decision, you know one way or another, you don't really remain. Remain the same, bringing the same isn't really a thing. So you make the choice or the decision to get out of the car and start running the race or, like you said, sit in the car and you know, like regress, and go the other direction. Like I think a lot of times people think if we just sit and do nothing, like nothing will happen. But I, I don't, I don't really believe that. I think what he uh kind of brings up in the book is more accurate. You, you, either, you know, get better or you get worse. Those are the only two options. There's really not a lot of remaining. You know, with diet and exercise and things like that, if you do nothing, that's not doing nothing, it's regressing. And so you got to make the choice to go the other direction so that's a good example.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good point. I think you know for me, go ahead. No, you can go. Yeah, I think for me it's. It's I struggle when I see people doing nothing, um, and that's where, like I, I feel like often the first step in being resilient is what can you do on your own? Like, what is it that you can do without help? Period, like, what do you have the heart and drive to do by yourself? And there are certain things you cannot do by yourself. I will say that 100%, um, but what can you do by yourself? And and sometimes I fear, like, if we don't allow people to make those first steps by themselves, they'll always rely on somebody else to make it for them.
Speaker 1:And I think it's an important thing to bring up is it diminishes, right? So back to people want the resiliency. You get the resiliency from accomplishing and tackling the difficult thing. I'm turning from the microphone but turning back and looking and saying, hey, I did that. So if you do have someone like you said, there's some things that you will need to ask for help and things like that, but that pride and sense of accomplishment is going to be higher if you did it. I mean, if you have to have that assistance, of course, have that assistance, of course. But um, if you want to build true resiliency and not what you hear about a commander's call or buzzwords or things like that, that's accomplishing something that's difficult and getting on the other side and realizing I, I did it, that's fine, I can do it again.
Speaker 2:yeah and I think you know, um, it's a spectrum. Right, you have a spectrum of of what you need to get yourself out of that position, and I use this analogy pretty often. You have to figure out on that spectrum the least amount of help you need to get you out of the problem. And the analogy I use is working out. If you're on the bench press and you have hundreds of pounds on there and you lower it and I just come immediately rip it off of you, if we look at the spectrum, that's all the way. On this end of the spectrum, you're never going to get stronger. If I give you just enough pressure to keep that thing moving on your own, you're going to get stronger. And so I think when you know when we are getting the help we need, it is what, what can you do by yourself? And then, how much help do you need? What you have to be all in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really, really good example. So I'd like to kind of move in and try to digest a little bit the the age piece. So, reflecting back on your own journey as you've grown up and things like that, how important or, um, you know, crucial is, is age playing in the development of resiliency? Um, is it different generations you'd kind of touched on that earlier. You know older civilians and different categories and things like that. How does age kind of play into this, or is it just trying to find what works for what people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, at the end of the day, it's what works for what people, and I think the age plays a major role in it, but it's not the role in generational differences. I mean, obviously my 11 and 13 year old are different than I was when I was 13. But I'm way more resilient now at 42 than I was at 17. And I think that it's just age, it's it's life experience, it is, you know, sometimes when you ask a 17 year old, I mean, some 17 year olds had some, some really, really rough challenges throughout. You know those 17 years.
Speaker 2:But as you age and you are faced with more and more adversity and you see more and more and you see, you know some of the challenging things in life and you're exposed to it you see people come out of it like you become calloused, and that callous mindset is what makes you resilient. Callous mindset is what makes you resilient. And I mean it's not I can't quote this, but I guarantee there's there's a lot more people in their forties and fifties doing marathons than 17 year olds. Um, it's because they're calloused. They have a calloused mind. A 17 year old is obviously more healthy and their joints aren't going to hurt, but they're going to stop after a couple of laps because it sucks Right Like running. That distance is is not fun.
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess for some people it is, but but I think as you age you realize like, hey, ok, this is challenging, I'm going to get something out of this. And the younger you are, it's just it's. It's a little bit different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point. I had Laura on one of my initial episodes and she gave an analogy for resilience, which is probably my favorite one, because I've heard the rubber band a lot in the military and it's always bouncing back, but I never really understood or didn't feel like it applied very well. But she referred to resiliency as paper plates, and so you earn a paper plate every time you go through a difficult situation or you do something difficult or like to your point, you see something difficult and see people come out the other end and so you build up those paper plates. So if you just have one paper plate because everything's been fairly smooth in your life, then you put a big bowl of spaghetti or something on there. That plate's just going straight to the ground, but you've built up those layers of paper plates from the situations and things you've been through and then you can take a hefty meal on that, that stack of paper plates. But that's the difference and that helped me, I think, see it a lot better and much better visual.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great analogy and it's through time. I mean I again, to be clear, I don't want to take away that we have 17 year olds and 15 year olds and 12 year olds that have a lot of paper plates, like that's a fact. But me in particular, you know I had a pretty easy childhood, so I didn't face much adversity coming up and even throughout my military career like minus challenging emergencies and stuff like that there wasn't a lot of. You know, I've been pretty fortunate to have a pretty what I consider normal life, with not a lot of things that had really got me to negative places. So yeah, that analogy is pretty spot on.
Speaker 1:So I'd like to ask about emotional resiliency You'd kind of touched on. You know you're older and running the marathon or, I guess, ultra marathon at that number of miles and so as you're going through that, you have the brace on things like that. So you have some limitations there in the physical aspect, but what's the inner monologue or what's kind of going through your head as you're moving through these difficult things and something that someone could take and use that actionable this week?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's just the decision you make to not quit and I think you know you can. Maybe I knew going out there maybe I was going to be slow, maybe there'd be a little bit more pain, but I wasn't going to quit and that's the biggest part of you know, we I went, I had an opportunity to go to a basic training last week and uh, got to see all the new recruits and uh, we spent a little bit of time in Naval special warfare, where I'll watch some folks that are assessing through, you know whatever, either TACP combat controller or seer prayer rescue, and and I I got to watch a little bit of their evolutions. But I watched some water stuff and uh, water is a great equalizer of everybody in these accession courses. And uh, and I watched one of the guys. Um, during the evolution I heard an air horn and I didn't know what that meant and I I asked the Colonel next to me. I was like what's going on? They're like, oh, that guy just he quit. And I was like what do you mean he quit? He was like he just quit, he said he had enough. I'm like, well, I don't even understand that. Like how, how is that an option? Like how, how do you, how do you, how you, how do you quit? And again, I'm not the guy that's in the pool getting all the water shoved down my you know head and all that stuff, as they're teaching me how to uh to deal and with water and in a crazy environment, um, but I think that's the mindset.
Speaker 2:I think it's, um, your body is a machine. Your body will quit when it needs to quit. Like if you're tired and you're running, like your body will. You will pass out if, if you're not getting the oxygen you need to your brain, that will happen. And I'm not saying you run until you pass out, but like your brain and your willpower to do something shouldn't be your limiting factor. And I feel like oftentimes that is the limiting factor, because people think they can't Like that airman or whoever he was. He may not have been an airman out there that day, I assume he was. His mental toughness is what made that decision that day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's difficult, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It is very um so I'm I'm curious you had touched on, you know, getting out of the car, running the, you know the marathon and making the choice, but these all sound like choices that a person can make. What advice or tips do you have? Where you, you know there's external things, the world, you know there's so many different things you briefly touched on you know the adversity of, you know some 17 year olds already have a lot, and so what? What is your advice and where it's not as much in your personal control?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, um, you know we're all dealt different hands, um, but at the end, at the end of the day, there are going to be things that are outside of our control. But I think it just goes back to those decision points. Is situation or so you just smile and keep moving forward? Because that's not the answer either. Sometimes you need time. You need time to heal, you need time to really process what's going on with you. But then you have to make that deliberate decision to do something and, like it all starts with that particular decision and you know, at the end of the day, whether it be a decision of getting out of the car, whether it be a decision of, you know, conquering whatever adversity that you have facing you right now. You have that decision and it may be a decision today or tomorrow or the next day, but if you never make the decision, you're never going to move forward.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. What do you think the biggest challenge you've overcome in your mental fitness?
Speaker 2:Really, like I said, I've been extremely fortunate in my whole life. I haven't had like a super low moment. I haven't had things like the most stressful times. I haven't had like a super low moment. Um, I haven't had things, uh, like I said, the most stressful times I've ever had. I've put on myself, um, either things I volunteered for or making myself uncomfortable in situations Like I chose most of the um the stress that that I've had.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's there's a few calls uh, throughout a 20 year career in the fire department that have uh caused me quite a bit of stress, um, that I've got on the other side of and not all of them worked out the way I needed them or wanted to work out, um, but that's just kind of the way it is, but it's never put me in a state to where I felt like, uh, I'm at this really really low point and I need to climb out.
Speaker 2:I mean, I just uh, I'm a pretty optimistic person though. So, um, again, although I've been very fortunate, maybe some of the things that I've been exposed to are some of the things that uh have been part of my life would maybe be different with other folks, but uh, normally I of my life would maybe be different with other folks, but uh, normally I, whenever bad news comes, you know I'll uh I'm not usually mad more than one one sleep. That's what I try to, that's the rule I kind of have, like if you're mad, if you're frustrated, um, give it one sleep, and after one sleep, uh, you gotta do something that makes sense.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like you seek out, you know those challenges based on you know kind of how you you're set up and raise and things like that. But I'm curious, besides seeking out uncomfortable situations intentionally, what are some other proactive ways that you believe younger adults can intentionally expose themselves to challenges for personal growth themselves?
Speaker 2:to challenges for personal growth. Yeah, I mean, uh, if you're not seeking it out, it's going to come to you.
Speaker 2:Um, that that's a fact. And do you entertain those or do you not? Um, you know, uh, I can't tell you the amount of times where someone asked me to do something uncomfortable. Um, I mean to be. It would probably blow your mind, but I, I publicly speak a lot, a lot, and, uh, I despise it, like I do not like it at all, um, but I will never tell anybody no after, like, hey, we speak at this event, sure, and I usually do pretty well, but it is uh, it's the preparation, it's the. You know, I'm not going to pick the right words, am I going to make the?
Speaker 2:impact that I want to make um, but I think, if you're not looking for it, there are opportunities that are going to find you and that's where I think we can grow the most from um, if we're not looking for it, I think I think, reflecting back to, and I think uh, you know, uh, some of our younger folks. They may have been faced with a lot more adversity than they do, um, but maybe they just reflected, and maybe it was around them, like I think we do a good job as parents of shielding our kids from adversity that maybe they don't need to face um either. Like hard lifetimes, maybe financial problems, maybe those types of things, um, but I guarantee, like, as a young adult, if you talk to your mom or dad or grandma or grandpa and say hey, like Like I tell you right now, I said I had a pretty good life right, like I had a pretty good growing up. I didn't feel like I wanted or needed anything. Well, as I reflect back on my youth, I have an older brother. He's a year older.
Speaker 2:My dad joined the military and my mom took care of us. They were young, he was 19. She was about 19 as well, with two kids, and he's an airman. He faced adversity. He probably had challenges to make sure that we were taken care of as well as we were. I never saw it, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. So I think a lot of times to have those conversations and one of the, when I brought up adversity and and you know, when I brought up adversity and you know our youth, I was an individual that gave me some feedback. I was like, hey, you know, I never understood how much adversity my grandma went through, until I really had those grandma talks on the back porch. And are those still happening, right? So for our young folks that maybe think that they haven't faced too much adversity, talk to your parents, talk to your grandparents. Um, I guarantee those stories. You probably, you probably face more adversity than you thought that's interesting.
Speaker 1:I find it hilarious the the public speaking thing, because I tell people that I'm like, I don't really like to be in front, but I talk so much like, oh, that that's completely shocking. I like to have conversations, uh, but in front of people it's just, it's a, it's a whole, nother thing. I'm curious what is your thought or advice on imposter syndrome? Because I think that seems to be I don't know if it's just more because we're identifying it and talking about it more, but I think that does seem to happen a lot. So back to your concept of when someone comes and asks you to do something. If that initial thought is, you know, I I'm not sure I'm equipped, I'm not sure I could do that, and so maybe it's not turning it down for the sake of turning it down, but turning it down because of a lack of like courage. How do people get through that? Just step forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I love talking about imposter syndrome because I felt it so many times in my career. You know, normally if you look at a trajectory of someone's career, especially in these types of positions, they're you know they work. Look at a trajectory of someone's career, especially in these type of positions, they're you know they work at the flight for a little bit, they work in a squadron, they work in a group and then they transition up and I moved from the fire department to the wing, so from a flight to the wing and, uh, the first time I remember and there's a meme and I love it, the first time I remember sitting at, like, the wing table as the wing chief. The meme is a picture of everybody sitting around the table and they're all in suits and then there's big bird in there.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 2:I totally felt like that because I'm like dude, I'm outside of my element, I have no clue what they're even talking about. But what I've realized, what I'm outside of my element, I have no clue what they're even talking about, but what I've realized is there's not a whole bunch of difference between where I was in the past and where I was sitting at that table that day. It's a little bit of experience, a little bit of sets and reps, but nobody goes into any position knowing what they're doing. And we have to get better at talking about that. Um, like I'll tell I'm, I get vulnerable all the time with this. I'll tell people I had no clue what I was doing.
Speaker 2:Um, and you know, I think that the folks that get in these positions for the first time and really think that I know what I'm doing a hundred percent, I think that the folks that get in these positions for the first time and really think that I know what I'm doing 100%, I think those are the risky ones. I think the ones who actually admit that hey, I don't know this and it's okay not to know this, but imposter syndrome. I think once you get into those circles and you realize you're just as good as everyone else is, or else you wouldn't be there. Like you're just as good as everyone else is, or else you wouldn't be there. That's the important part is, the more and more I expose those opportunities, the more confidence it gave me. Like, hey, I do belong here, and you know it's it's still every new table. I sit and I'll feel like Big Bird for a day or two and then I'm like all right, it's it's time for me to do my thing and I belong here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting. I remember I got my commission. So you know, staff sergeant have like three to five troops, and then you know, go to HSA, our tech school for health services administration, and then come back and they hand me 20, I think it was 24 blue folders. Oh, what are these? And it was all the appointment letters and I had my name on them. So they're like you're an expert on anti-terrorism unit, deployment manager, security, like you know a long list of things. So I don't know anything about any of these things, non-prior medical. And now you know my third group. So, yeah, just completely crazy. But one thing I forget if I read it or heard it. But I think it's something that I kind of put on my mantra in the back of my mind and try to pull on it when I need it. But I was talking about the people that selected you, interviewed you, talked through your process and got you to where you are.
Speaker 1:If you don't believe in yourself, you're almost, in a way, like disrespecting them. You're like, oh, you don't even know what you're talking about. You selected me, you picked me, but you know if I'm not supposed to be here, and so I thought that was kind of an interesting spin on it, kind of turning it the other way. These people have groomed you, talked to you, mentored, you interviewed, you know long list of different things to get to these different positions, and so to be like, oh, I don't believe in myself, I'm not really supposed to be here. You're almost like spitting on them, like I don't know what they're talking about. Why'd they pick me? And so I think back to the people that helped me along the way and whatnot. I'm like I don't want to, I don't want to disrespect them. So I do feel awkward sometimes, like you said, for a day or two, you know to get up there.
Speaker 2:And that's the one thing is you get higher in these leadership positions. I mean, I know for a fact I can't be Big Bird forever. I'm not going to leave anybody as Big Bird. So you've got to be confident in your abilities and it's OK to be like that for a couple of days. But that's humble, right. It's humble to admit that you don't know about anti-terrorism or whatever it is the papers you sign. But it's very humble when you ask that staff sergeant or that senior airman that is an expert in it that says hey, like tell me about this program, because I don't know, because you're not expected to know everything. And I think that is. I've been very comfortable the last few years to raise my hand and say hey, what's that acronym? Like I know what that means.
Speaker 2:And what I find more often than not like, as soon as I ask, like four people turn their head yeah, they're like oh, I don't know either. Well, why don't you want to admit it?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so funny. I've seen that on Simon Soneik. He mentions that too. He said I'll be the dumb one that asks the question. And then father to people like oh, that is a good question, why didn't you? So funny? No one wants to be the one looking silly. I guess it's such an odd thing with our A-type personalities and the people that join the military and whatnot. That's a whole other episode, I guess. But it's interesting how we don't want to look a certain way, so we maintain something that doesn't even need to be maintained.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we had touched on, you know, inner individual type resilience and things like that, being able to take that first step and just move in the right direction. But I'd like to hear from you when do you see role models and mentors and things like that that can help positively influence and help that person navigate challenges? How does the role of the mentor or the role model fit into resiliency?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's when I think about the role model or mentor, going back to that lifting weight analogy. They're your spotters, they're the ones that are giving you what you need to continue to move, and sometimes that's honesty, sometimes that's tough love and I think that you know it's funny. This week I had an opportunity to talk to some of our partner nations and different commanders from our partner nations and they asked me about the role of a mentor, not even just in resiliency, but just in general. But I think that's another buzzword that we can probably do a whole nother podcast on as well.
Speaker 2:A mentor but I think more often than not we get the term confused. Mentor. To me, a mentor is somebody that knows your inner thoughts. They know your strengths, your weaknesses. It's somebody you're going to be able to get vulnerable with. It's somebody that you're going to lay out all the truth on. It's because a lot of times when we want help out of situations, we're still holding something inside. It's a thought, it's something that is just because we all have secrets. We have something that we hold internal to us and you know, have something that we hold internal to us and you know that's just the reality, the reality being a human being. Um, but what? What does that mean? Like, how close can you get to that mentor to release as many of those secrets as possible for your feelings, so that way they understand exactly where you're at, so that way they can give you the spot that you need to get out of your situation?
Speaker 2:Now, I think a mentor should not automatically run in and save the day every time. Um, that that is, that is not good. Uh, I think that they should. I mean, I, I, I have a few folks that I guess that I would coin, uh, the term that I do mentor, um, but usually I'll I'll listen first, uh, I'll hear their story and I'll give them those hard questions. Uh, I'll ask, you know, uh, like, oh well, what did tell me what you?
Speaker 1:did again.
Speaker 2:Like let's walk through that and um, I I think that that's the role of helping face adversity is, when you're facing challenges, the individual who's facing the challenge in order to get moving in that first step. A lot of times we don't take accountability like we need to. So what did I do here? Like has the world just come down on me because I have bad luck and that's all. The adversity that I face is because of my terrible luck, and sometimes it is right. But I think a lot of times we create our luck and you know, if we don't start owning some of those decisions and we don't start taking accountability for our actions, then we're going to find that mentor always reaching in to help somebody out. So it kind of starts at that level, I think.
Speaker 1:Hmm, so you see it as more of a blend mentor slash coach, being able to kind of help through situations instead of the savior. Yeah that makes sense. Um so, since this podcast is focused on mental fitness, what's a actionable tip? Someone listening right now not yours specifically, but just in general what's an actionable tip someone could take this week and put into their life to improve their mental fitness?
Speaker 2:I think taking the time, I think taking the time to really focus on where you're at, I don't think we slow down enough. I think that we are all busy and when we're not busy, we're doing something that makes us busy we're on our phones or in front of a screen. I find, more often than not, we don't have quiet time and I think you know you may be facing more adversity than you know and maybe it's just going to continue to compound until it becomes too much for you. Um, because you don't take the time to sit back and reflect exactly where you're at. So, uh, you know it's funny. I would never thought and I'm not in- it yet, um.
Speaker 2:But like, uh, meditation and stuff really, really interests me, um, because it's that just escape. It's just you, it's your thoughts, uh, where are you at right now? It's, it's your opportunity to become grounded, uh, to be able to determine which step you have to take in that direction. But if you don't take that time, um, you know, I think that you'll be missing things that are bubbling in that direction. But if you don't take that time, um, you know, I think that you'll be missing things that are bubbling in the background.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So. You got the change of command coming up on the I think 28th. So what does the future look like for you?
Speaker 2:Um, so I am retiring as well. Um, I have about four months or so left. Uh, we'll see what that looks like. I'm going to uh move to Jacksonville. Uh, you know there's there's a lot of opportunities over there. Um, we'll see kind of kind of what I get into.
Speaker 2:Uh, I'm fortunate enough to where you know I can, I can do fire stuff. Um, do fire stuff. My dad's been in the financial world for quite some time, so that looks pretty appealing as well to be able to help people out with their financial goals. So I'm not really sure. I just know that it's going to come pretty real, pretty quick in the next few months. And uh, just going back to basic, last week and I got to go to the fire academy a couple weeks ago to go spend some time with them.
Speaker 2:It's really been an emotional ride towards the end. As I start to reflect that, hey, man, it's coming to an end. Um, so, uh, I plan on taking an entire six weeks off of doing when I said get grounded for a minute ago and get all the noise of the world out of your, your system. I, I really for six weeks off of doing when I said get grounded for a minute ago and get all the noise of the world out of your, your system. I really, for six weeks, I want to get off the grid, I want to just be with my thoughts and and really just unpack what 25 years in the military did and before I get started with the next. So I look forward to that. That's awesome. Four months is going to fly by.
Speaker 1:I'm super excited for you that you're getting, so I look forward to that. That's awesome. Four months is going to fly by. I'm super excited for you that you're getting some of those really capstone moments where you're going to cherish those for the rest of your life. That's awesome. I'd like to give you a final takeaway, final message what do you want listeners to take from the whole 54 minutes.
Speaker 2:I mean, at the end of the day, you know, I wouldn't beat yourself up if you're not, as, if you feel like you're not a resilient person. You know, I don't want that that special warfare guy to see this by chance and be like, oh, he said I quit, Like maybe I saw you in a bad moment, you know, like I don't know what led to that moment. Maybe you have 5,000 other moments to that point. So I'm never here to judge anybody. I'm not. If you are not tough enough today to take that first step on the track, that's okay. You know, I'm not here to say, you know, I expect more of you or you should have taken that step, um, but I hope you think about taking it tomorrow, and you know what does that look like as you continue your journey. So, uh, everyone's different. Um, like I said, I was super fortunate. Uh, I do.
Speaker 2:I love that analogy about the paper plates and I think that's one thing that we have to understand too, as we talk about resilience. And maybe for me or you, if we look at it as as a buzzword, maybe we just don't have enough paper plates that we've experienced. So for us to to take away from some of our folks that we think maybe need to build resiliency skills, well, maybe we need to understand, uh, them a little bit more as well. So that's a very, very good point that I'm taking away. But, again, you're not always going to nail it today, um, but reflect, take your time, do some of that soul searching and the next time you're for the opportunity to take that step.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Yeah, those are good words. I encourage listeners to let me know how things are going. Thoughts, questions, anything on social media. We got the audio podcasts on buzzsprout or anywhere you receive your audio podcasts, and then we'll have the videos up on YouTube. Uh, thank you so much for coming out, sir. All right, we'll see you. As always, I love you all, see you.
Speaker 2:All right Later. Thank you.
