MindForce: Mental Fitness & Life Stories!
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MindForce: Mental Fitness & Life Stories!
Transforming Leadership: Dan McKay on Shifting Mindsets, Emotional Hurdles, and Genuine Growth
Is your leadership style truly effective, or are you unknowingly leaving a trail of disengaged and discontent staff? Discover the eye-opening journey of retired Army officer Dan McKay as he transitions from a self-focused mindset to an us-focused approach, reshaping his leadership and the well-being of his subordinates. Through candid examples from his military career, Dan reveals the pitfalls of a self-centered leadership style and challenges us to prioritize organizational achievements over individual accolades, especially in higher leadership roles.
In this episode of Mindforce, we tackle the emotional hurdles involved in shifting from an inward to an outward mindset. Personal stories, such as my own misstep in implementing a training program without team consultation, highlight the significance of self-awareness and support systems in effective leadership. We stress the importance of understanding one's role in various situations and making a conscious choice to adopt an outward mindset for a positive impact. This insightful conversation underscores the critical role of genuine feedback, heartfelt correction, and mentorship in personal and professional growth.
We also explore the stress of "faking it until you make it" and the counterproductive behaviors it fosters. By sharing humorous anecdotes, we shed light on the importance of leaders showing vulnerability and accountability to create a healthier work environment. Learn practical tips for sustaining an outward mindset, recognizing triggers, and owning your contributions to promote better interpersonal relationships and effective leadership. Join us for a transformative discussion that encourages us all to be the best version of ourselves and foster a culture of growth and mutual respect.
Hi, I'm your host, nate Shearer, and welcome to the show. I'm broadcasting from the glorious Stuttgart, germany. This is Mindforce, the podcast for love, life and learning where your mind matters. Today, we have Dan McKay talking about outward mindset. The three things we're going to be focusing on today is seeking to understand your contributions to any issue, good and detrimental, assuming positive intent while guarding for nefarious intent. And trying to always have a positive impact, especially at the point of correction. Welcome to the show, dan.
Speaker 2:Thanks, nate. It's an honor to be here and it's always flattering for someone to ask your opinion about things, so hopefully, we'll put your audience down.
Speaker 1:Well, I'd like to open the floor now to you for some opening comments. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2:So I'm a retired Army guy. I came in the Army in May of 1980 as an E-1 and retired in 21 as an 06. And during those 40 years I spent time in the National Guard and the last 28 years on active duty and probably the last 10 years of my career I was really focused on organizational development, professional development, helping organizations shift their culture, because I just found working in army medicine as I did for so many years that one our leadership development system for big army did not fit the needs of military medicine. There's just too many extraneous variables in there for the big army leadership model to actually work really well in medicine. The second thing is that we don't really prepare our army medical leaders very well at all and because of that the culture suffers tremendously. The workings and attempts of DHA to actually consolidate all three services into one health care system and get two better results than we were getting as independent Air Force, navy and Army medical systems- we could probably have a whole episode on DHA.
Speaker 2:You could probably have a whole series of episodes on DHA.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. Today we're talking about outward mindset, so can you tell us a little bit about your life when you were still self-thinking or internally thinking, or some examples of that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have some great examples of that because, unbeknownst to me at the time, especially when I was at the 04 level, I was extraordinarily self-focused, self-concerned, self-promoting, and if you wanted something done, I was your guy. I'd get stuff done, but you'd also have to put up with the trail of bodies I was going to leave behind me to get stuff done. I remember a particular incident where my boss was upset with me about something and he looked at me and said you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you? And I said yeah, but every time you need a knife you pull me out, don't you? And um, that was that.
Speaker 2:That level of arrogance was was just frightening to me when I when I saw it for what it was, which unfortunately wasn't for some years later, and kind of how you can gauge this self-focus when I was a major, I had like 34 CRNAs certified nurse anesthetists that worked for me at that time. And when it was time for my farewell after three years of being at this particular medical center, um, none of them came to my farewell. Um, and it didn't dawn on me at the time, it didn't dawn on me till several years later that that was a reflection of my leadership. Now, my superiors, who who threw the farewell? They were all there because they thought I was a great guy I got. I got stuff for them done, but my CRNAs were the ones that paid the price for me getting stuff done.
Speaker 1:So I'm curious I don't know enough about the army system, but do you guys have stratification the same way we do, where we're graded against our, our peers?
Speaker 2:Uh, we do, we do and, and you know my uh, if you look back at all my major OERs um, I think there were seven of them, six of them are our top block, top top 10 to 20% of of the army nurse corps or officers in that facility and, and like I said, my bosses loved me, my staff not so much.
Speaker 1:So with that system, how are some of the ways that that works to drive competition in a healthy way? Or you know, what are some of the ways that that kind of drives division?
Speaker 2:Well. So I'm somewhat familiar with the Air Force system as well, because I've had to write evaluation reports in both sides. And our system actually perpetuates self-focus right? Because in your initial counseling it's like what are you going to accomplish? Not how are you going to accomplish what we are set forth to do. In your quarterly counselings it's what did you accomplish the next last 90 days? What are you going to accomplish the next 90 days? Not. How did you help us accomplish our goals last 90 days and how are you going to contribute to our goal achievement the next 90 days? So our very system sets us up to be what I call the inward, to be inwardly focused, concerned on what's in it for me or how the world's impacting me.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting. I never really thought of that before. We have this strategic offsite. We go off, we talk about the mission and vision, we set lines of effort, we do these things and they don't really come up in feedbacks. That's interesting. I wonder if that's something that should shift where. What goals of the organization have you accomplished in the last 90 days or you know, whatever the checkpoint is? That's interesting that they're all individual. But you are right, that's how the system is set up. When you look at decorations and your eval and all these different things, it's you know all the things that individual has done. I wonder you know, maybe at the CGO level or or lower levels E or O, I guess maybe that's a thing where you need to be able to focus. But I think as you shift to a higher levels, there probably should be more of a group dynamic or how you're impacting the organization. That's interesting.
Speaker 2:And you know you said something about competition earlier, and so now, instead of a group of junior field officers working together to accomplish the organization goals, we have individuals working in silos, you know, and many of them listen. This doesn't mean they're not doing their job right. They might be nailing the job Like I was nailing my job. I just had no concern whatsoever on the impact I was having on everybody else. That just never occurred to me to be concerned about the impact I was having on others as long as I nailed my job and I got to the results that my boss wanted me to get to.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. What are your thoughts or feedback If you're aware? If not, that's okay, but on the 360 feedback, we're getting the feedback for the left and right and actually the people below you as well. I think that's an interesting. I've seen some negative feedback from it based on the anonymous portion of it, because it allows people the avenue to kind of talk badly about someone they're frustrated with or things like that. So I guess there is a negative aspect to it. But it feels like there does need to be some incorporation from below level Because if, like you said, if you just crush the people and you're the number one of you know however many people yeah, you did get the number one, but at what expense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So so here you open up a couple of cans there in your in your question. First and foremost is that I'm not a huge fan of anonymous feedback. I think people weaponize anonymous feedback to in the Air Force and in the Army. I can't speak to the Navy because I've not seen any of their command climate surveys that are done. The 360 evaluation that the Army program ran for gosh two decades wasdevelopment um program guide to understand where where my strengths and weaknesses are. But it was.
Speaker 2:It was used in a check the box kind of way and um, and then there was never a discussion or at least for me there was never a discussion with my, my boss, about what the results of my 360 were and thought about what should I do to make any changes that might be indicated in that 360 review called the Leadership Challenge that Kuz and Posner posted out and I taught this class several times when I was down at AMET Center in school and taught it to several organizations on TDY and they've actually used it in the pre-command course before and it's the same kind of thing.
Speaker 2:It's a list of 30 behaviors that we ask all realms of subordinates, peers and superiors to say how often they see these behaviors in us. And then it gives this report and the problem is that they're all behavior-based. None of it addresses the mindset of the individual or the individuals providing feedback. So if I'm checking the box on giving Dan McKay feedback, I might put down he's a 10 on everything because I want him to think I like him right. Or if I've got a grievance to file against him and I know nobody's going to know it was me Maybe I'm giving him a one on everything. I'm not really giving him feedback that is going to be useful to him to make him a better leader, and that's my biggest gripe about anonymous feedback.
Speaker 1:My follow-up question is the impossible question. So if you could fix evals for the whole DOD, how would you do it?
Speaker 2:A couple of things I would do. It's not the system that we have set up. The actual OER, nc, oer system, the DP map systems are good systems. We're just not using them right. The leaders are either not using them at all or checking the box on it. You know to use the OER system for the Army that has, you know this brilliantly thought out. You know you got all these attributes that you have to put something in.
Speaker 2:For some of us in the army those don't really apply to our jobs and it's hard to force something into that box that doesn't apply to your job. And if it does, then we can't see it. Yet Somebody more brilliant than the individuals might need to help coach, teach and mentor us what that might look like. But the systems aren't broken. It's the application of the systems. I've been on a journey the last six, eight months talking with a bunch of military people who say you know, either they're never getting initial counseling, so they don't know what the expectations are, or if they do, it's a canned counseling session that has no bearing on what they actually do, and then there's no quarterly counseling or midpoint performance reviews, or none of that is done with any type of sincerity and thought about the impact the supervisor's having on their subordinates.
Speaker 1:You want to hear my favorite one, dan? Oh, absolutely, keep on doing what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Yep, which you know. The translation to that is either I know exactly what you're doing, and you're doing a really great job, or I have no idea what you do for my organization and I don't have time to learn about it.
Speaker 1:That's terrifying in two different ways.
Speaker 2:Well, it is because it offers you very little feedback, and then that feedback really isn't for you. Is it that feedback is really for that leader that gives it? And and the message is very clear I don't have time for you.
Speaker 1:So before we make it too far, dan, we talked about your internal thinking and things of that nature. I'm curious. I wanted to ask this, but we were just having such a great discussion what, what caused you to change? What was the aha you? You mentioned the going away. Was there another?
Speaker 2:one, or was that kind of it? Um it, it was actually some some training that I was exposed to. Um it's, it's called outward mindset training and it's the the brainchild of a, of a guy named Terry Warner and his son, mitch Warner, who now runs a company called the Arbitra Institute. And I actually read their book. And when I read their book, in typical inward mindset, thought I knew how I could fix everybody if they just listened right, because I wasn't part of the problem. Everybody else was. And then I went through a two-day workshop on the material and I didn't get it. I'm from Alabama. Sometimes I'm a little slow. It actually took me to taking the workshop the third time before I went. Oh Okay, this isn't about me helping fix everybody else. This is actually about me fixing the way Dan McKay is seeing the world and maybe sending out a different invitation to people to join me to work together, instead of to continue working together but separately, which is another way of saying in silos.
Speaker 1:Makes sense. So the next thing I want to ask you this is probably one of my favorite lessons was being stuck, so it kind of goes into. Your first theme is seeking to understand your contributions to things. So when you're stuck in a situation, how do you start to identify how you are contributing to that situation? You're stuck in.
Speaker 2:Man, that's a great question is really about emotional intelligence, about being aware of whether you are focusing on what's in the situation for me or how's the situation going to impact me, versus how can I make this situation better for others and how can I have a positive impact on the situation? I have a positive impact on the situation and those are two diametrically opposed mindsets. The Arbinger guys actually call this the difference between being in an inward mindset, where I'm self-focused, and being an outward mindset, where I'm actually focused on more, on the impact that I'm having on those around me and on the mission. And if you think about the leaders that you've really admired over the years, I would almost tell you if we had a conversation about them. They are people who have either developed this outward way of thinking about others or they've successfully been through the training and they've learned how yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:So when you're stuck in those situations, uh, what are some key things to keep an eye out for? Is it just that mindset in general, or are there things that you can kind of see as it develops?
Speaker 2:yeah.
Speaker 2:So, um, getting stuck in this, in this inward mindset, and listen, I think that life, life teaches us to be unconsciously competent about this meaning it's, it's almost well, it is intuitive to us to, to be in this inward mindset at times and learning what that feels like, smells like, tastes like, learning how I react, what my behaviors are toward others when I'm in that headspace, is actually the key that opens this door and allows me to now make a conscious choice not to be that way.
Speaker 2:And it's challenging because it's really comfortable in this inward mindset that I'm unconsciously competent of. You know, I'm in here and I feel safe and I feel secure and I feel like nobody's getting the better of me, when in fact, everybody's getting the better of me, because I can't see it, I'm only living in my own little fantasy world and that transition from from being self-focused to being us focused is terrifying. But once I get there, it's easy. But that transition is terrifying and it's full of of all sorts of um, elephants and rhinos and dragons and and bad thoughts and negative feelings and and it's tough to fight through those unless you really have some some type of a background and a support system and and some self-awareness background and a support system and some self-awareness.
Speaker 1:That makes sense, dan. I love me some stories, so can you give us an example of a situation where you positively impacted the situation and then maybe one where you negatively impact that situation, showing that inward versus outward?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, the negative one. I mean, we could be here all day talking about that and my leadership from an inward mindset time at one of the major medical centers, and I was invited to join the executive team and I showed up on the executive team and came up with this bright idea that I was going to implement this training program. And not once did I talk to any of the other executives on the team to find out what the impact was going to be on them and how it would impact their operations or their people or patient care, or, you know, was it in line with what the general wanted us as an organization to do? It was all about, you know, I'm going to implement this program, I'm going to make myself look really great and, uh, yeah, that was that, was. That was a great way to set yourself up for failure. By the way, um, and and I'll just continue this into the outward mindset story, because luckily I had, I had a boss that that could see what was going on, and um had a boss that that could see what was going on and, um, he, he just looked at me one day and he said um, hey Dan, do you think you might be pushing the Corvette off the cliff. And um, I know that's a strange line to say to an audience, but so there's a.
Speaker 2:There's a commercial, uh, for Jap candy bars, uh, bars, somewhere in the islands, caribbean, somewhere where this gentleman's driving up in a delivery truck and he sees a man who's just been exercising standing next to his Porsche on a cliff, kind of stretching after his run, and the guy parks his truck, jumps out and together he leans on the car and together they push the car, the Porsche, right off the cliff. Because his interpretation was you know, I'm going to help this guy. You know, his car must be broken down, he's tired of it. He's, you know, for whatever reason. He thought that pushing the car off the cliff was going to be helpful, and you can just imagine him getting back to the garage and going.
Speaker 2:You know, hey, I was driving along, I was up on this hill pass and this guy was trying to push his car off the cliff. I got out, I parked my car, I helped him push the car off the cliff. He was so happy, I got in my truck and I drove away. But I'm wondering if that was the story of the guy that was driving the Porsche that was just stretching after his run Right His story is totally different.
Speaker 2:This guy attacked me Ruined my car Right. So, anyway, this was this was my boss's reference to me about how I was going about trying to implement this bright idea I had was I was basically just pushing cars off the cliff. It was all about me and not the impact I was having on others, and so when he helped me see that, then I was able to go to each of the deputies and say listen, this is what I've been asked to do. Help me understand what impact this is going to have on your part of the organization and how can we get to the strategic goal of having this type of leadership implementation in your lane completed by the deadline, implementation in your lane completed by the deadline, and it so I had. At the time, I had seven other executives that I need to deal with, and that simple conversation totally changed the dynamics of the implementation process and 14 months later we had accomplished it.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. It reminds me of they talk about. You could be going a hundred miles an hour, but you don't have the direction, Then you're going to go wherever. It kind of reminds me of that same thing of the Corvette, Like the person is doing something and accomplish something, but it wasn't in the right direction or wasn't, you know, the thing that I wanted to accomplish. So it's easy to put the effort in. That guy pushed a car.
Speaker 1:That's a pretty good effort, but not not the right direction, yeah, so, uh, moving on to the next thing. So we kind of talked on those positive and detrimental contributions. Um, I'd like to ask you a question about feedback. So we kind of touched on that with the annual reviews and midterms and things like that. But how on, I'm curious on kind of both sides receiving and also giving how? How have you seen it's beneficial to stay positive through those difficult feedback sessions?
Speaker 2:Now are you kind of leaning toward. You know how do I give correction to someone else or how do I receive correction. Is that what you're really asking?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so Because we, kind of like you had said, I feel like we check the box a lot. So if we're going to move towards real, meaningful feedback, how do we do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, first and foremost, you know there's a sender and a receiver here, right? And if the sender of this correction message is not seeing the receiver as a human being, they're just seeing them as an object, a cog in their wheel, someone that's either their vehicle that's going to help them advance their own career, or somebody that's an obstacle causing them problems, right, then the correction is not going to go anywhere, because we, as human beings have this innate sense of how other people are seeing us. Are you seeing me as a person? Are you seeing me as something you can use, or something that's in your way, or something that's just irrelevant to you, right? Um, and if and if, correction is is um broadcast from an, from an individual that sees me in that way, the chances of it landing on me and having any type of impact on me at all at all, other than making me mad is, is extremely limited. So when I.
Speaker 2:I, I, one of my, my co-facilitators, told me this once and it really resonated with me. He said we have to, you know we. He said we have to. You know we are issued the right to correct by nature of our rank and our position. We need to earn the right to correct other people and we earn that right by actually having a relationship with them.
Speaker 2:I don't mean being BFFs forever. I mean having a professional relationship with them and understanding what their goals, objectives, challenges, difficulties, barriers are, limitations, and being able to teach, coach and communicate, mentor, to fill gaps that they have, because that's our job as a leader. And once we've done all of that, a leader, and once we've done all of that, then we have the right to correct people. And that correction needs to be from the heart of I need you to be better and this is the correction I'm going to give you. And this correction is to help you be better, not to demean you or make me look good or check a box or set you up to be fired. This is heartfelt correction that you need to hear that I'm struggling to give to you but you need to hear it because there's something that you need to be better on.
Speaker 1:Do you have any personal examples of a feedback session that went pretty?
Speaker 2:bad and what you would have done to do it differently. I have a great example of what I just shared, where someone gave me some feedback that was really hard to hear, but I knew that they cared about me and so I took it to heart. And this was that same boss that talked about. Talked about pushing uh, pushing cars off. The oh seven board is coming up, the uh, the brigadier general board is coming up, and, and, for whatever reason, I got in my head that I was competitive for that.
Speaker 2:And, uh, I went in to have a conversation with, with my boss, and um, and he's, you know, he's like well, Dan, what makes you think you're competitive for this position? Why don't you have a seat? Which was the first flag that went off in my head, because seldom did he ask me to have a seat in his office unless he had something really profound to tell me. And, um, and, and we went through this conversation and he asked me if I had done several things which I had not like, like an 05 command, an 06 command, war college were the three that immediately jump off the page at us in the story. And then he leaned forward and he goes well, Dan, if you haven't done those things? What makes you think you're competitive for being a G? And there was just this pregnant pause and I'm like yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 1:The answer is no the answer is.
Speaker 2:I'm not, and it was actually a great conversation that I now try to have with people that are majors Right. Try to have people with people that are majors Right, because if, if, if this is a goal of someone, then this goal starts developing and the path starts getting laid when officers are majors, with their first field grade assignments, and there's a path that they that they need to think about following. They can't, especially in the healthcare realm, they can't just be clinicians and then expect to be general officer.
Speaker 1:That's not how it works. But the root of that is that relationship and things you've built up, which I've heard, the analogy which I like visuals and stories, as I mentioned and so I've heard kind of the bank account analogy, which I think is good. You've built up rapport, you put money in the bank and so when you need to pull out or you know that negative, uh aspect of it with drawing, which is kind of that negative aspect of it, then you have some, some money in the bank because you've built up, you've asked how they're doing and you know about their family and things like that. So I think that's a good analogy. You can't just come in swinging right off the bat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know. So that's the great outward mindset story, because both of us were in an outward mindset. He saw me as a human being who needed some redirection and I saw him as a boss who actually cared about me and I saw him as a boss who actually cared about. An example of when that wasn't happening was a time when I was actually filling in as the deputy commander for nursing at a small community hospital and because I was filling, there was a. There was an issue with a lieutenant colonel who was junior to me, but she was Lieutenant Colonel as well and I I had to bring her in the into the office and and provide some, some counseling and some correction and and I turned it into all about me, about my making myself look like I was in charge and in control and and, um, you will do what I say and I I never listened to her side of the story.
Speaker 2:I uh, I didn't have a good relationship with her to begin with. Uh, she was actually the chief of the operating room, I was the chief of anesthesia services. So we were I mean, we we had to work together, but we were. We kind of considered each other's rivals had to work together. But we were, we kind of considered each other's rivals, and now I'm in this position where I'm exerting authority over her, um, through my own sense of hubris actually, and and that session did not, did not end well and it did not help this um, this Lieutenant Colonel, grow at all, this Lieutenant Colonel grow at all. As a matter of fact, if anything, she regressed and it was probably my fault because I was focused on what was in it for me not being helpful to her.
Speaker 1:Do you have any format suggestions? Or is it really just that rapport that's in built up Because I've heard, you know, you got the poop sandwich and some people say it's great and some, you know, don't put poop sandwich and some people say it's gray and some, you know, don't put the nicety at the front Cause you're just gonna. Is there anything that helps with that Like format to get through that? Or is it just, if you don't have the rapport, you're kind of you're kind of SOL.
Speaker 2:The, the styles can, can can be anything that you've ever heard of. You know sandwich mechanism. You know the best knife is the sharpest knife. Cut to the point, right. Any of those styles don't matter nearly as much as the development of relationship and the right to correct other people. Not the obligation, but the right Right. And we have to earn that right to correct others. And when we correct without earning that right, it usually doesn't go very well for us.
Speaker 2:Just last week I was with another Army facility and I had a great group of NCOs in class and we got to talking about this very topic. And I had a great group of NCOs in class and we got to talking about this very topic and one of the NCOs says we are trained to correct people on the spot. I was like, yeah, you are, and the way that you approach that E4 makes all the difference in the world in whether your correction is going to be absorbed and adjust their behavior or if they're going to blow you off and think that you are nothing but a win back. And we came up with some examples. Like you know, an E4 walks pie in 06 and doesn't salute right.
Speaker 2:Well, in the medical world, most 06s just keep walking. I'm just telling you that's just the way it is. Most medical O6s just keep walking because we're used to people not saluting us, right yeah? But you know, a senior NCO sees this and can approach this E4 in one of two ways. They can walk over, lock that E4's heels up and read them the riot act and tell them to get their head out of the fifth point of contact and and out of fear that E-Force will probably learn a lesson, but there will be no respect for that senior Sergeant going forward.
Speaker 2:There'll be fear, but there'll be no respect versus you know, versus the, the Sergeant going over, going over and saying, hey, specialist, come here. I need to talk to you for a second. Did you see that 06 just walk by? You Explain to me how come you didn't salute him. That's not the standard. I need you to uphold the standard, because when you don't do it, all your buddies see that it's okay for them not to do it. And now we've got a big problem. Can you help me?
Speaker 1:A little bit of buy-in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that will radically change not only the respect for that senior NCO but the self-worth that that E4 has that he's part of a solution.
Speaker 1:That makes sense, that buy-in being part of the solution. That makes sense, kind of transitions to the next thing I wanted to ask you about. In the military we kind of talked about you know A-type personalities and wanting to stand out. And you know we signed up for this to do good things and so we're competitive and so we have this need to be seen, you know, as a certain thing and you kind of touched on it. It's like everyone else but not us. But can you touch on kind of? The things that you exude outward are probably more from a personal problem.
Speaker 2:I'm not. You threw a couple of things there together that I didn't quite follow. Can you rephrase that maybe we have with ourselves, and so we're kind of person that then you might be focused on yourself, not on others and your impact on others? You're really focused on the impact they're having on you and you're letting them know that you're not good enough and that others are better than us, and we're not going to let them see that they're better than us.
Speaker 2:So some common thoughts that go along in here is that I'm going to keep faking it until I make it and nobody else knows that I'm going to. I'm going to keep faking it till I make it and, um, nobody else knows that I'm incompetent and, um, you know, we, we, we do things like we work extra hours, we work extra hard on things, and the whole time there's this underlying anxiety and stress, in this feeling that everything we do is going to be our ruination and if we don't succeed on everything, it will ruin our entire world, and that people are just waiting, waiting in the bushes for us not to be perfect and they're going to pounce and they're going to judge us and they're going to harm us. And it's so. It's such wasted energy, because it's a fantasy that we created ourselves. Now, listen, I'm not saying that we create this all by ourselves, because our leaders actually help us get into this. When I go tell my leader that I've either missed a deadline or there's a problem, and I get chewed out, the messenger gets killed and the problem doesn't get addressed, then I come back into this space and think I'm not good enough and and that just crushes people with stress and anxiety.
Speaker 2:Some some ways this has shown up that are they're kind of humorous, right, um, you know, if, if I'm, if I'm working with an in an office, with a, a bunch of people in uniform, um, I, I, I might have, uh, two head covers one that I keep in the back of my, uh, in the belt of my pants, and one that I keep on my desk so that whenever I'm away from my desk, people think I'm there and I'm, I'm. I might not even even I might've even gone for the day, but my hat's still on my desk, so whoever's around thinks I'm still there somewhere. I'm working, right, um, I, I've seen that I, I, I, I, I might've participated in that once or twice, maybe, um, the the other way I've seen this show up is, you know, the really techie, tech savvy people not me, but others have told me this that, um, you can actually type up a bunch of emails and time when they get sent out, and so they get like you're working all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they get sent out at eight o'clock. It's like you're working late every night, right. And and then you come in the next morning hey, did you get the email I sent you at eight o'clock last night, right? And even before people get their their backsides in the seats and they turn their computers on, you're. You're like, hey, look how hard I'm working. Why aren't you working so hard?
Speaker 1:right, because I need someone seeing that way yeah, so the, the people with the anxiety and things like that, what have you seen? That's a good way to address that. Is it just to sit down and get the face-to-face feedback to feel better? Or how do you kind of ward off some of that stuff that's out there, that's not really there.
Speaker 2:You know, that's a great question, because I think their leadership is the key, if their leadership will show enough vulnerability to say hey, I'm not perfect either. I make mistakes and own that mistake. One that I really like to talk to leaders about is you know, before you're going to meet with Dan McKay, just take a moment and think about me, think about what are my goals and objectives. Is there anything that you've been doing, intentionally or unintentionally, that might be making my job harder? And if there is, what might that inspire you to do differently and just start the meeting with that. Start the meeting with that. Something like hey, nate, I was thinking about you and the podcast and how you're doing with this, and I realized I didn't get back to you with an email to find out when we were going to set up this podcast. You know, that's really I'm going to take the heat round on that, because I could have done that and I didn't, and that may have made your job a little harder and I apologize.
Speaker 1:I feel better already.
Speaker 2:Right. So this sets the tone, then for the subordinate to say oh well, thanks, boss. Well, listen, you know, there are a couple of things that I'm not perfect on either, and there are actually a couple that I need your help on, but there's some other things that I'm nailing that you don't need to worry about. And now we can have this conversation that, instead of being an hour meeting once a quarter, it's a 15-minute meeting once a quarter, and it's succinct and to the point, and the boss knows exactly what to expect from me, and I know exactly what to expect from the boss.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so the next time we got on the agenda is assuming positive intent. So how do you go about, or do you have any stories on making sure that not everyone's out to get you?
Speaker 2:This is. This is so challenging.
Speaker 1:Maybe they are out to get you.
Speaker 2:Right, you know that that old, that old phrase of just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. You know it's taking that totally the opposite way. But you know, once we actually get to see others' humanities and not see them as objects, we can actually sense when people are out to get us and when they're not. And now we realize that not everybody's out to get us and we can actually go into situations with some, some positive skepticism, if you will like, and make people prove they're out to get me, versus just assuming they're out to get me and assume that you know they have goals as well that they're trying to achieve. And and and I doubt their goal was to screw Dan McKay over today. Right, yeah, that makes sense. Listen, some people may come to work that way sometime. I can't actually think of a time that I woke up and came to work in my 41 years in uniform and said wow, watch how I screw things up today everyone wants to do a good job at work.
Speaker 1:I think 99 of people want to do a good job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely and and if we, if we can assume that positive intent, it changes the way we see other people.
Speaker 1:Which leads us into collusion. So, Dan, how you know, can you walk us through where you're just continuing something and basically keeping the cycle going in this confirmation bias, where you do something so they'll keep doing it and it's just a cyclone?
Speaker 2:It's it is. This is a cancer. This is a cancer. This is a cancer. And the biggest challenge with this is most people can't see it. But once you see it, you can't unsee it Right. And this really, it really.
Speaker 2:It's kind of the story of the Hatfields and McCoys and most people, at least in America, will will understand that. Where you have two families feuding against each other, they don't even know why anymore after 100 years, don't even know what started it. They just know that every time you mistreat me, I'm going to mistreat you worse me, I'm going to mistreat you worse. And we actually get into this cycle of if this is between you and I, nate, we get into this cycle where I need you to continue mistreating me so that I can justify my behavior towards you and you need me to behave poorly towards you so that you can justify your poor behavior to me. And it just keeps going.
Speaker 2:And the sad part is, in an organization it doesn't stay between you and I. Right, pretty soon I'm going to gather some allies and I'm going to convince them what an awful person you are. You're going to gather your allies and you're going to gather your allies and you're going to convince them. What a terrible, terrible senior guy I am.
Speaker 2:And now, instead of just you and I in this tussle, this tango of mistreatment, now we've got two entire departments fighting against each other. I was working with one of the Navy shipyards and we were teaching this concept and one of the Navy guys said oh my God, you're describing this code and this code. So departments in the Navy are called codes, right, and so there were two codes on a nuclear shipyard that were in conflict with each other constantly and had been for two decades, and one guy from one of the codes had been there for the entirety of this mess and he remembered how it got started and those two leaders that started this collusion had been gone for a decade, had been gone for a decade and the collusion was still active.
Speaker 1:No, no one even knew why at that point and no one even knew why.
Speaker 2:And and the if your followup question is well, how do we get out of this? Um, I just doing my mind reading, um, right. And if your follow up question is well, how do we get out of this? Just doing my mind reading, right, how do we get out of this? We simply stop contributing fuel to the fire. We actually just step back and think how am I contributing to this? How can I see this other human being now as a person and understand what their goals, objectives and challenges are? And how am I doing my work in a way that's making their life more challenging? Because that's not what I get paid to do. I actually get paid to come to work and nail my job in a way that has a positive impact on everybody else that I work with, and that's how you break a collusion.
Speaker 1:There was one thing I wanted to ask you on this one. So you want to make sure you're seeing the other person as a person and looking at those challenges and things like that. But I saw a little bit of creep into boundaries and barriers where people had difficult relationships and things like that, and so I think there has to be some level of boundary. If you know in the past you've been mistreated or whatnot, so can you kind of touch on where that line is?
Speaker 2:So remember when I talked about the boss that realizes they're not perfect and kind of shares that with the subordinate yeah, yeah, so this is, this is the same kind of methodology here, right? Just because I stopped contributing to the fire, does that mean the fire goes? Not necessarily, yeah, so do. Do forest fires go out overnight?
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, that'd be good.
Speaker 2:You know, even if the wind dies down and we get a little rain, does a forest fire go out immediately?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Right, and so, if this has been something that's going on for two decades, right, it may take just as much time and effort as it took to make it this way to unmake it Right, and the only way you can do that is for the individuals involved to own their contributions and make retribution Right. Listen, nate, I'm sorry that I've been mistreating you for years and years and I want you to know that was not the best version of me and I'm not going to do that anymore.
Speaker 1:And that's just making you better. That's not necessarily giving up, because I feel like that's kind of how it might be seen by some people, like you're giving up the power or whatnot, but you're really just making yourself better or whole.
Speaker 2:Right, um, really just making yourself better, or whole, right. And remember I told you that being inward is really easy, right, being in this collusion is just so easy. I am unconsciously competent about this. I don't even have to think about this collusion, right, I'm just good at it.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to be bad to Nate, right, making that transition from being inward to being outward is scary, and all of those justifications. Like you know, this means I'm going to lose, or Nate's going to take advantage of me, it's going to make me look weak, it's, it's, it's not going to be safe for me. Well, if I'm only seeing Nate as an object, how safe is that for me? Because Nate's not an object, he's a human being, you know. And if I've got my back to him and I've just made up this fantasy world about what Nate's capable of, I can't actually see Nate coming at me because my back's to him. But when I see him as a human being and I change my perspective of him, now I'm able to see all of his humanity, both the good and the bad, because there are bad people in the world, right, and now I'm actually able to protect myself versus before, it was just an excuse not to be the best version of me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. So, as people are going throughout their day, we kind of touched on the inward versus outward. What are some things you know, actionable tips someone can do to kind of keep an eye on that?
Speaker 2:Look for things that are irritating you and ask yourself why is this irritating me? You know, give you just a quick example. Like, I got an email at 845 on a Sunday night from my boss that had a very corrective tone to it and it invited me to go inward instantaneously. And it invited me to go inward instantaneously. And when I have that self-awareness that I'm in that space, that I'm in that headspace, that's when the door to the space actually opens up, and now I can choose to be different. And so now I can consider well, what challenges must my boss be facing? He's having to send me emails on Sunday night, right?
Speaker 1:What are?
Speaker 2:his goals. What was he trying to communicate to me in this email? And he was really in kind of the paul harvey of the story. He was really trying to have my back and sunday night was the first he got first chance he'd gotten to make it that far into his emails to actually give me some feedback right. So he in his mind he's actually trying to be helpful to me, but I took it totally as an as anront.
Speaker 1:It's so crazy the powerfulness that's not a word of text on a page. I've read so many texts of different stuff and there's no tone because it's just words on a page. But we can infer so much. I always think like, oh, this person's trying to do this or trying to do that, and you ask them like why did you say that that's kind of messed up? And you know, you ask them like why'd you say that it's kind of messed up? And they're like oh, I didn't mean that. Uh, text or text on a page is tough, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah and yeah, but it's. It's because your question was how do we catch ourselves we? We catch ourselves by being self-aware of what triggers us to go into this, this state of mind.
Speaker 1:Right, that's good Cause it's going to come. It's not that it's going to go away.
Speaker 2:No, those triggers are going to be there all the time and and so we were talking about it being in this need to be seen as space the triggers come fast and hard when I'm in this need to be seen as box because, because people are activating it all the time, right, they're, they're, they're hitting the thing and they're not even meaning to right, Because they don't know what my insecurities are. And if I say something that triggers an insecurity in me, boom, I'm in this. I got to be seen as I'm, not somebody that's insecure.
Speaker 1:Which goes right back to the positive intent in others. Yeah, they probably don't even pay attention or anything, either positive or even neutral.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in that moment my mindset is they don't have positive intent, they're out to get me.
Speaker 1:So you got to switch that over? Yeah, that makes sense. Well, we've talked about a lot of great things, dan. If you had one message for the listeners to take away today, what would it be?
Speaker 2:Be the best version of you. Just keep asking yourself when you're in situations and you feel people resisting you how did I invite this resistance Right? How did I invite this resistance Right? How did I invite this resistance? And if it was not being the best version of you, then change something.
Speaker 1:You can control you. You can't control others Exactly. Well, Dan, thanks for coming out. I hope you enjoyed your time.
Speaker 2:Oh, this was wonderful. I appreciate the opportunity to talk on this. Obviously, I have nothing to say about it and this was just a trial to pull things out of me.
Speaker 1:It was a lot of good advice. I encourage listeners to share their thoughts. Let me know how it is on social media. We're out there on email, buzzsprout and YouTube, so I love you all. See you, take care, thank you.
