MindForce: Mental Fitness & Life Stories!
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MindForce: Mental Fitness & Life Stories!
Demetrius Pagan's Journey: Bridging Military Rigor with Compassionate Support
Can a coffee break save a life? This episode of MindForce features Demetrius Pagan, an inspiring suicide prevention trainer who brings nearly two decades of military experience to the table. We explore how simple acts of connection, like sharing a cup of coffee, can play a crucial role in fostering supportive environments for mental health. Demetrius shares his effective approach of utilizing personal stories to cultivate empathy and rapport, shedding light on the ongoing challenge of breaking barriers in the military's results-driven culture.
I reflect on my own transformative journey into suicide prevention training, where a seemingly mundane mandatory session became a turning point. Inspired by the Green Dot Training, I pursued certification as an ASIST trainer, driven to transform checkbox exercises into engaging and impactful experiences. Our conversation emphasizes the power of meaningful engagement and the urgent need for a proactive community dedicated to mental health advocacy.
Together with Demetrius, we explore the ACE model of conversation, advocating for direct questions and genuine support. We discuss how success stories of recovery can inspire hope and break down misconceptions. The episode wraps up by weaving in unexpected elements, like the new Transformers movie, to highlight the importance of normalizing discussions on complex topics like moral injury and mental health. Join us for a compelling dialogue that underscores the necessity of empathy, connection, and leadership in creating inclusive and supportive environments.
Hi, I'm Nate Shearer and you're tuned in to MindForce, the podcast. That's all about love, life and learning. We're here to remind you that your mind matters. Today, we have Demetrius Pagan. I met him at a suicide prevention class and I've been over 15 years and I've been through a lot of classes. You've got to go through them every year. It's one of those annual requirements, but the passion, the creativity and the drive to see other people connected really uh forced me to reach out and, you know, learn more about uh, Demetrius or Dr Pagan, as his email addresses Uh. So I had to go ahead and ask more because he was able to engage and keep people connected and uh got people out of their seats. You know, maybe they didn't want to get out of their seats, but they did Uh. So, demetrius, thanks for coming on the show. I'd like to give you a chance to introduce yourself. Who are you, what do you do and why are you here? Oh, man.
Speaker 2:Hey, Wally, great intro. I am, as stated, Demetrius Pagan. I have been in the military for 19 years now and haven't said that out loud in a while, so I've seen a few iterations that we talked about the suicide prevention training and I'm really here just to again facilitate and open up the conversation and thank you for having me today. Married, three kids background, been teaching suicide prevention for a couple of years. I actually started back in a previous installation, so I'm excited to be here. We are hanging out in the UK, so getting adjusted. So, all in all, having a great day. Look forward to it Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And if anybody wants to know if the Air Force is a small world, I go to my in-processing brief out here in the wonderful United Kingdom, you know, two hours outside of London, and I'm sitting in this briefing. I look over to the row next to me, leaving a base in Florida where I met Demetrius, and there he is. He's sitting right there in the in-processing briefing with me. So even though you move around the world, across a very big ocean, you're still bumping into people that you know and we say, like, medical is a small world, you know, because it's a specific career field. But even across the board, there's not that many of us that you know raise our hand and jump into serve. So it's awesome stuff to be able to meet people. At this point I think I could land anywhere in the world and probably, you know, put it on Facebook and find 10 people that are there. So it's a good stuff. But, dimitri, I just wanted to see if you had any questions for me before we start the interview.
Speaker 2:Um, let's see the biggest question I had uh had today, for this one, you know, changes daily. One of the major questions I had today was what have you seen as far as suicide prevention that has worked and what have you seen that you don't think was as impactful as it could have been?
Speaker 1:OK, yeah, I think the biggest thing is connection, and I'm sure that's a cliche thing to say. I feel like sometimes I'm a walking cliche and I say things that are super cliche and I sometimes feel like a big cheese ball. But if it's what I truly feel.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's what I have to say, but I think it's it's connection and I think it's smaller things than we really think and I don't know how exactly to tackle that, uh. But some of the smaller things, like grabbing coffee in the afternoon with a couple people, you're just, you know, you're tired, you're kind of over it for the day and at two o'clock you go and get something. It's nothing to do with the coffee, nothing to do with the tea, but that a connection in the car on the way over, maybe being able to vent, and things like that. I know that's not training and I don't know how you like get that out, but I really think you know, even though it does sound cheesy, lowest level type, but I think that really is what it is. It's the people that are beside you getting through the things. We don't live normal lives at all. We go on deployments and TDYs, people have to watch our kids or pick our dogs up, and so it's one of those things. I think we have to be side by side. And the things I think don't work is when the mindset is not there, and again, I wish I knew how to fix that, because I hate bringing up problems without a solution, but I think it's just the mindset.
Speaker 1:If you're walking in the door and you're just wanting to check the box, as I know, you know when I've gone to different trainings and whatnot my coworker is like let's go get this over with, and it's like it's unfortunate. That's what it's become where it's every year and it's just something to get over with. And that's what I really appreciate about your training. You had that intro and you got people you know telling stories right off the bat and that connection. I think that's what it is. You want to hear that someone else is going through something where you can connect. I think us, being in the military, we're a type personalities. We raise our hand because we like to go get stuff done. And if you like to go get stuff done, it's difficult to ask for help and you feel like you're not supposed to, which is completely not true. You should definitely get help, but I just think that you are like I'll fix it, I'll take care of it. I'm not going to ask for help. But if you start to identify there's other people that are struggling with things and going through things, and that's one reason I struggle a little bit.
Speaker 1:I was thinking about this the other day and talking with somebody forget who it was. We were talking about the DSD system and some of the opportunities that are out there like shirt and recruiting and different things like that for those positions. We've kind of come to the point where you need to be perfect for those positions and I you know not that you want a dirt bag in those positions, of course, but I feel like I'd rather have my shirt, maybe have some trouble and, you know, dust himself off and pick himself back up If my shirt's firewall five never had any issues and whatnot and maybe his stuff at home. I mean, I guess you know work and life are completely different, but I almost feel like we should allow people to bounce back from things. We don't do that very well. That was way longer than you probably wanted. What do you think about having a shirt that's had some trouble and being able to connect with that person?
Speaker 2:Not too long at all, sir. I think that's very important. I think, when we talk about the shirt, being able to have that conversation with somebody that might be going through something, might've had a hiccup, might've had a rough time, um, and being able to say that, hey, look, we've seen this, we know this, hey, I went through it. Um, some of the a lot of the leaders that I've seen I've been to uh, worked undershirt duty, I've been to the symposium, and a lot of the stories you kind of hear from them is hey, when I was an airman it wasn't always perfect, I did this and a lot of them saw examples that weren't so good and wanted to step into that role, or they had a really positive experience with the shirt and they were like I want to do that for somebody else.
Speaker 2:I know if you've ever listened to CMS Sergeant Robinson speak. At one point he talks about his first duty station. He showed up to the wrong base totally 100 percent wrong base and he said, nope, that's it, I'm done. He cut off the plate at the wrong installation and they were something out. But the fact that he's been in for 16 years still tells us where that first supervisor that helped him out, that first shirt that worked with him when he didn't have to, because it wasn't his truth, he wasn't even the size of the installation but that one person went out the way to help him out. I think it's important to be understanding and know that a lot of that comes from having those experiences and seeing those experiences and knowing that, hey look, you're not going to be perfect, every element isn't going to be perfect.
Speaker 1:But we're going to get through this and we're going to move forward. Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's one of those things. There's a story I tell I don't remember if I told it on this show or not. I don't really like to share it because it wasn't the best moment of my life, but I think it really drives home that point. I had the Red Cross notification for my dad passing away. I'm in Guam, I'm out in the middle of the ocean, on an island in the middle of nowhere, and I was able to get that notification. There was only one flight that left the island at 6 am every morning, so I was able to go home at like 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Go home, pack my bag, wake up and then get on this flight to race against the clock to see if I could get there before my dad passed away and be, you know, with him. In those departing moments I didn't think about anything, I just left.
Speaker 1:And it wasn't until I got back where all that started to dawn on me, where we have a community and you know we have things different than we have in the civilian sector, like I think, in the civilian sector, would someone have watched my house? Yeah, absolutely. But when I got back, someone has swept and mopped my floors, someone put my dishes away. Someone drew a picture of like my dogs and the adventures they had while I was gone. That was hanging on my fridge. Like these things you just can't like they would have kept my house from burning, I'm sure, if I worked at Google or Amazon, but the level of like community that's there and these are people that are not my best friends, are not my drinking buddies, but they knew they needed to step in and take care of things and that's something that just you know stays with me. I've been in a few different career fields that you know make a decent amount of money, which is in no way to toot my horn. But the reason I stay is I remember moments like that that I've had throughout the years and I want to make sure I'm giving it back and paying it back because I was able to walk out, not think about anything, focus on the thing that was most important at that time and walk out of my house Like I just don't know where else you go where you can do that and have my floor mopped, like that's even an added bonus. It's just insane that they came together and I don't even know who orchestrated it or I still don't know to this day, like how that all came together. But, um, you know they knew that the focus was elsewhere and I could leave. So it's just, it's wild to me.
Speaker 1:I think that community, and going back to the deployments and things like that, we should all be able to step in and take care of each other and, like I said, you don't have to be best friends or, you know, have all the same likes and things like that, but if someone needs you to, you know, be on their family care plan, which is kind of funny in general that we sign people up on these things that we may or may not barely know. But the military is a pretty wild place. But before we get too off topic, let's jump into the interview. I wanted to start off by, you know, starting with the suicide prevention. Like how did you kind of get involved in that and you know what drew you to that?
Speaker 2:Honestly, one thing I think I am actually going to finish MRT training first week of November, so I've had to do that. I've been trying to get that done for a while. But COVID, and then they had distance learning classes. I was like, nah, I want to go to class, I want to physically go to class and actually sit through the curriculum. So I waited Nice Finally got a slot opened curriculum, so I waited.
Speaker 2:Nice Finally got a slot opened up, so I'm headed out first week of November, so yeah. But as far as suicide prevention training goes, I, like everybody, we did it every year. We did it every year. We're checking boxes, checking boxes, checking boxes, and it actually say what you want about it. But it actually wasn't until Green Dot Training happened where I was like, ok, this is better, this is moving in the right direction, I want to try to be a part of it.
Speaker 2:You know, but they didn't tell anybody about Green Dot Training. They didn't tell anybody that, oh, we're looking for trainers. You just show up and people have been trained and you don't know where they came from. And you're like, hey, how do I, how do I get on the list? And I'm like, oh, yeah, your unit, and nothing ever comes down.
Speaker 2:So, um, once we got away from that, I was still interested. So it's actually when I got to uh erby, I started looking into it, because when we first get into over at hurlbert they make you do safe talk, uh. And then I said, okay, I want to be a safe talk instructor. And they said, well, you got to be assist trained. So I went and became an assist trainer. I went and got assist training done. So I was like, okay, let's do that.
Speaker 2:And I never got a chance to do the safe talk class. But through the assist training I began to make connections and then I got into actually being able to teach suicide prevention. And I wanted to teach it because I got tired of it feeling like everybody was just going through the motions. When you show up at the meeting, we show up at the briefing, and they're like, okay, this isn't going to be long, we're going to get through this. Everybody knows everything, let's just try to get through it. Please participate. And it turns into the most mundane thing. And I'm like, as an instructor, if you want to get out of here, then you know, I want to get out of here, you know if you don't want to be here.
Speaker 2:Of course I want to be here, um, and so I tried to bring that approach. This is okay. What do we know, what don't we know, and how do we make this training not feel like it's going to continuously drag? I'm making a little bit more than a checkbox, so hopefully it sticks with somebody at the end of the year. Um, that's kind of my goal and my perspective and hopefully I've done okay, um, you know classes are hit or miss, but hopefully I've done okay and I'm trying to continue to grow that skill set to um, put that messaging out there, um, so that way we as a community, um, can be more engaged and involved when it comes to prevention.
Speaker 2:A lot of us like to think that we know. But if you ask somebody, okay, cool, how's that conversation go? You know, um, we sit down and we go through the things that we always. But if you ask somebody, okay, cool, how does that conversation go? You know, um, we sit down and we go through the things that we always learn. It ends up being a checkbox. But when you actually dig into it, it's like what is? It's like okay, I gotta ask care, escort, cool, what does care look like? I'm gonna show that I care how I'm, I'm gonna sit there, okay, yay, what else? You know, what does that look like? We can check the bots, but what does that actually look like? You know, I'm going to ask, I'm going to ask them directly. Okay, how does that conversation go, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. Can you walk us through Ace and like what it would actually look like instead of a hypothetical?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've gotten a few more trainings. I'll stick with the ACE basics for right now, or else we're going to have a two-hour podcast. So when we get to the ask portion, the primary thing you want to look at is being direct with the question, because most of the time I ask people, all the time I say you good, good, good, good. And if you ask somebody are you good, are you okay, how's everything going, is there something you want to tell me? Everyone can look at you and go I'm fine, it's fine. Live in the dream. Live in the dream.
Speaker 2:Yes, if you ask somebody, if you think about when you ask somebody how's their day going every day and you're walking past a lot of people go good, it's a quick, short answer. Well, if you sit down and ask somebody have they thought about suicide, have they thought about taking their own life? And many caveats to get to that question Some people are scared to get there Then that again involves more of the conversation. Well, hey, here's what I noticed. I noticed you're not coming to work on time like you used to. I noticed that I know your father passed away a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2:How are things going with that? What have you been thinking? I ask people now. I'm like how are you doing mentally and physically? How are you doing mentally, physically, emotionally? And they'll start talking like, hey, normally when people do this they can potentially think about suicide. Are you thinking about suicide? You know so, that way it's not the straight, direct, short answer. Get them to think and ask the conversation and look at them. And if you actually think that, hey, you know, I'm not sure if they ask triple stick and say it's not just a short, are you thinking about committing suicide? No, okay, cool, have a good day. You know a little bit more involved in that.
Speaker 2:And then we get to the care piece. And the important thing about the care piece is that when you're looking at the care piece, it's not about the emphasis I'm going to take, it's not about you, it's not about you. It it's not about you. It's not about you, it's about the individual. And I say that because a lot of people they get to the point where they want to, they want to help. It's just natural. We want to help, we want to be there. But then you start being pushy. We have to take you to the chaplain. We have to take you to the church the time to work through that, to be able to help them make that decision.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:When we talk about helping them get there and actually all right. So tell me what's actually going on. Let's have the conversation, let's get some stuff out. Why do you feel this way? The goal is to not solve their problem. The goal is to not fix their problem this way. The goal is to not solve their problem. The goal is to not fix their problem.
Speaker 2:If somebody said because, oh, I'm having use money, because a lot of us understand money issues, um, oh, I'm having financial problems, the goal is to not go oh well, I can cut you a check right now and solve all the problems. It's not. It's not point of it. The point is, hey, they're at a place right now where they are thinking about taking their own life. They are are looking for an exit, right, so, being able to talk them through that and listen to what they're actually saying, not judge them because they had a rough patch. Not judge them because they got a divorce last week and then they went and gambled away 10 grand and now they can't pay their bills.
Speaker 2:This is not the part of the conversation where when you know somebody or you feel that somebody is going to potentially harm themselves or take their own life. That's not the point of the conversation, where we want to begin to start going back through and judging them for all of the everywhere you made a mistake. So the care piece is about actually listening, not judging, and also allowing them the time to work through the conversation so we can get to the escort piece, which is hey, there are facilities that can help, hey, there's places we can go to be able to assist. And, like I stated before, if anybody's sending my trains, like sometimes, the care piece and the escort piece looks like this hey, do you want to go to the hospital right now? And they go, no, it's like, okay, well, we just sit here, we wait it out. I'm going to listen, I'm going to give you the time and the space you need to work, to try to work through this, but you're not going to do it alone, and I think that's so cool.
Speaker 1:Really looks more like receive mode, right, no-transcript. Sure we say the right things, but really you could just be there, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you could just be there and it's going to depend on the individual. That's another thing too, and being able to listen and kind of understand what the individual needs. Being able to listen and kind of understand what the individual needs, because if we think that everyone just needs me to sit here and not, sit there and not, and now they think you're not engaging or you don't care, you're zoning out, you know, if you're always trying to interject some sort of point, now they don't think you're listening. It all depends on the person and to take that opportunity to be able to listen to what that person needs. Sometimes you can ask them okay, what do you need? Where can we help? You know what I mean. How can we?
Speaker 1:help. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:What do you need to get through this particular moment you're in right now? Because that's what it is. It's a moment, it's usually the moment in time. You know how long that time lasts may vary's. For a lot of people, it is a moment in time where they're, they're looking for an exit and they don't see another one.
Speaker 2:So give them the time and yeah, that helps them to be able to get the assistance that they need. Um, and I think that being in received mode is a very good, very good way to put it. I like that. I like that being a reception mode. We're going to take stuff in, we're going to evaluate and we're going to help this person get what we need. Um, I've done suicide.
Speaker 2:Suicide first aid is the one I'm working on now, and one of the big things that they talked about in that is that a lot of people that have repeats when it comes to going back to the cycle of suicidal, suicidal behaviors, there's like a lot of them. The issue is they don't get the help that they need when they need it. You know, and everybody is not on the same pill. Some people just need to talk to the champion. Some people need to go talk to a medical professional because they might need medication for depression or other mental health disorders, and we can't assume that everyone just needs to take a moment, take a breather and tell me about their problems.
Speaker 2:You know everybody's on different apps. Some people just need somebody to talk to and to actually feel like somebody cares, somebody's listening, and you can be that person if you just take the opportunity and the ACE model doesn't have to go in order. We've said numerous times you might have to bring somebody in before you get somebody to start holding that conversation. You might have to show people that you care before you get an actual response from the question. So definitely use it as a guideline, not as a rule book. We have to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not as rigid, right? I'm curious from the stories that you've heard. If you have heard stories like how do you transition? Because you had said, like when you're walking in the hallway you see somebody and you're asking how they're doing, you'd have to. You know, those are very potentially deep and dark conversations and questions, so that can't happen in the hallway. You need to transition to a point where can we go grab coffee or something like that. But I feel like back to like we were talking about earlier being a types and wanting to, you know, not get help. How do you transition when you're asking the person, they're like, no, I'm good, no, I'm good. And you're like, hey, let's go grab something. No, I'm good, and you can't really. I mean, I guess, like you kind of touched on that just now, it's different for every person, but what are some general ways where you get from the office, the hallway, to a place where that conversation can be had, because they're not going to have it in the hallway? How do you break through that where like, no, I'm good.
Speaker 2:Well, here's a big one too. It doesn't always have to be you. You might notice it, and we talked about the escort piece. The escort piece. There's other avenues to get there. It might not have to be you. If you know, hey, I know this individual hangs out with these five other people over here. You know I might go talk to them and says, hey, what's going on this weekend, what's going on this afternoon? When you guys go to lunch, just have a conversation with them, because I'm concerned about X, y and Z.
Speaker 2:You know, the goal is to actually get them to a place where they can have that conversation, unless you built up that rapport that might not be with you. You know you built up that rapport that might not be with you. You know, um, and being aware of that, on what that relationship is, if it is somebody with you, then you really just have to, um, from what I've seen is be patient with it, but also don't drop it if that makes sense. Um, if somebody's like, hey, I don't want to go anywhere, i'm'm good, I'm fine, cool, where are you going? Oh, I'm going to take care of this. Okay, cool, let's go. You know, um, like I said, everybody's different. Seriously. Um, if somebody is like I'm gonna go do this, I'm gonna do this job on the flight line, okay, we're going to do this job on the flight line. Sounds good.
Speaker 2:And because it, because it opens up an opportunity to be able to start that conversation, because they might have other things on their mind, there might be busy is the same same method we're trying to use with getting them out to the coffee and things of that nature. They don't want to go out to coffee if they keep saying they're fine and really follow up with that. Doesn't have to be invasive, doesn't have to be. Are you good? Are you fine? Are you fine? Are you okay? Are you okay, are you fine?
Speaker 2:Sometimes just a conversation. Well, tell me what's going on. How was your day going, how was your day yesterday? How's your girlfriend doing, how's your dog, how's your cat, how's your family? Just actually taking time to have a conversation and from there you can kind of glean all right, here's might be what's going on. They seem real hesitant to talk about the girlfriend or the mom or the dog, or the dog's been sick and they haven't said anything in a week. We have got no shop updates for the dog. Little things like that to try to, to try to pick up on, to be able to continue having that conversation again. Like I said, show you care before you get to the ask A lot of this is going to be depending on the relationship with the individual.
Speaker 2:So taking the time to do that even in that moment and again, hey, I might have other stuff to do, but I see that this person's looking trouble, something's looking off, not just dropping it, and being able to follow through.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. I'd like to transition back to the classes that you've held and things like that. You've taught quite a few. I'm curious when you teach different levels of the class, do you tailor? It Is mental health and mental fitness kind of across the board. Or how do you tailor for the young airman class to the leaders of the base class?
Speaker 2:So a lot of my trainings are the same. It all depends on what the focus is, depending on the group. For instance, when I teach F-TAC, we'll teach the F-TAC first-time airmen that are coming in, for those that don't know the acronyms that we keep using. So, the first-time airmen, it's their first base, first installation and they have to go through a whole lot of briefings and trainings, and one of them, unfortunately, is me, so I go teach them. It's more along the lines of getting them prepared to think about intervening in certain situations. It's not strictly focused on suicide prevention, even though it's a part of it, but it's showing them the importance of intervention in general versus specifically, hey, suicide prevention, when you see your enemy, when you see this, that and any other. Um, when I teach a mixed class, I'll, I'll point out the seniors and senior enlisted, and one of the things that I point out to them we talked about, uh, the mental health piece. One thing I point out to them is when you're on top, no one asks you are you okay? Um, so I'll, I've asked the colonel. I've asked the colonel sitting in the first, second row. I was like okay, colonel, who do you talk to? And he pointed to his uh, his vice commander. Like I talked to him, like go, who do you talk to? You know and because I want to get it out there that the leaders still have stressful days and have people that they go through. You know what I mean. It's like if the colonel has somebody that he goes to. It's like and you're in a shop with 10 different people, 15 different people. There are many different places for you to be able to try to make connections and try to hold those conversations. When you're going through something, you don't have to hold it all in. You don't have to be by yourself. You don't have to hold it all in. You don't have to be by yourself. You don't have to be on the island.
Speaker 2:Another little thing I try to do when it comes to different tiers is I try to bring it up to other people too. I've trained trainers before. It's like, don't forget, you have civilians in the audience. So when you're looking at talking and focusing strictly on military and what military has to go through, I was like you're alienating part of your audience that still needs to train because they're still, even though there's civilians working on base, there's still people working on this installation going through things. You know they're still part of our extended family, if you will. So definitely don't alienate the audience that you're speaking to.
Speaker 2:So, other than that, I actually try to get the uh, the lowest tier airmen and the highest tier just try to get them involved. You know, even the colonels have been, have sat through this, they've gotten briefings. Try to get them involved in the training because, again, they're bored, they're engaged and they can. They can be able to um, comment and and share stories in the communication and the training. It opens it up for other people to feel comfortable doing so. Hopefully that answers your question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm curious. Over the years we're both, you know, been in over 10 or 15. You're closer to retirement than I am, but uh right behind you, what do you, what do you think about the, the trend and the trajectory from. I mean you touched on it briefly where you saw green dot come in and you know how are, how are things changed over the years in this mental health realm?
Speaker 2:um, I think they are. Slowly but surely we're turning a corner with the training to where it's becoming less of a checkbox. Um, I think, as far as the military we are trying to set it up to be and I don't know all the studies and stuff that go into pairing to do another training but I think we are trying to get it past the point of doing the checkbox. I don't know all the studies and stuff that go into preparing to do another training, but I think we are trying to get it past the point of doing the checkbox. I don't think we're there yet. I'd have I've said it before, I've have certain issues with how we're supposed to do the training because I think they kind of, in some ways there's hey look, we need to make sure that we cover these particular topics and since it's all these issues, and I get it, but sometimes that takes away from us being able to connect with the various audiences that we have. And I think that's important for us as leaders or as people or as airmen or as NCOs or as officers, to be able to look at our formations and the people that we have and be able to address the issue and adjust it to the groups that we have. I think that's kind of the important thing, because a lot of people sit through the class and go. This doesn't apply to me. I don't understand this. So how do we make it relate to individuals?
Speaker 2:Right now in the UK, you know, um, where our training is totally different. They're doing a totally different thing. That I think the planning, I think the on paper it works. I think on paper it looks good. Execution is a different story, and so again, just getting here, I'm shaking the tree a little bit, but I think that on paper it sounds like a good idea, but the expectation on execution is a lot different, and we had conversations with the leader back in the other installation too. But I think we're moving in a positive direction. I just think they really need to to hone in and stop trying to check boxes with training. We need to make sure we talk about this. We need to make sure to talk about this and actually get into.
Speaker 2:What are people going through? What, what, what are the problems that are arising that we can try to address, and how can we better prepare leaders and the people that are around them? And I'm not saying that it just has to be ncos, but on us as leaders and lowest class e1. You're around a bunch of people in. In lots of aspects you're a leader.
Speaker 2:Um, at that point, how can we better equip the masses, the airmen and big A airmen and little a airmen how can we equip them to be able to identify and be able to hold those conversations to help people, to be able to get them to resources that we need? And then on top of that we have to have resource availability. That's a big thing. It's like, hey, I want to take them to mental health. Cool, mental health has an appointment in two weeks. That does not help me, brother. So being able to have those resources available, because that sends the message that you have help I can tell you this right now from experience. When you tell somebody to go to mental health or go talk to the Epflak or go talk to somebody and nobody's available, it seems like nobody has time for them. And it does not help what we're trying to push, what we're trying to promote and all the power.
Speaker 1:how would you change the training? Would it be more often or how would you attack? There's probably no perfect solution. We're all a little bit different, but what's one thing you'd love to change in the training?
Speaker 2:I would honestly like to one have trained trainers. I would like to be able to equip trainers with the knowledge and resources to be able to bring their with the knowledge and resources to be able to, um, bring their varying experiences to the train. What I mean by that is, um, one thing that we don't get uh to this right now we don't get the the data. Um, we don't get the data. Um. I've had people ask me it's like hey, how are we trending? You know is like hey, how are we trending? You know people want to know. Does the training in its current iteration work? We don't know because we don't have the data. Somebody has it but they're not giving it to us. So I think being able to have certain data points to be able to make the adjustments Like, for instance, I hate breaking up COVID, covid was a big deal, right? So if things are happening during COVID, what are they seeing? Hey, we're seeing that people are having financial issues. We're seeing that people are feeling isolated. So now we know how to better address those conversations in our training in real time. Training in real time versus focusing on two to three-year-old statistics with how do we get active?
Speaker 2:We know the root thing is connection. Right, we know the. The root foundation of it is going to be connection. That's been through every training I've been to. That's been the the core, whether it be working to better build the connection or building off the connection that's already there. The root has been having connection with people. But now how do we take that and be able to equip the people that are doing the training, that actually care about doing the training, and be able to equip them to go out there and hold those conversations, answer questions as necessary?
Speaker 2:I don't think everybody has to be quote unquote formally trained. I think it works out better, like we talked about previously, if we have people that have struggled a little bit, have had problems, have seen some things, if you will Not somebody that's coming off a doctorate program that I know all of the scientifically. I need somebody that can connect with me on, like I said, base level. This is why I connect. I need somebody that can connect with me on, like I said, base level. I need somebody that can connect on base level. All the money in the world I would put money towards resources and research and be able to equip us with actual data and numbers about what's going on, because lots of us don't know the root cause. We talked about warning signs and risk factors, right? How about you say you've been at 15 years?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm coming up on 16. Coming up on 16.
Speaker 2:Since you've been doing the training, has that list changed?
Speaker 1:I don't think so.
Speaker 2:They're going to give away their stuff, they're going to look sad in the daytime.
Speaker 1:That list hasn't changed, but what you say in the last 16 years, people's situations and circumstances have changed and one thing that's always kind of bugged me about this and I've talked to a couple different people about this is we talk about the warning signs and all those negative aspects. I don't think we do a very good job of the success afterwards. When you're in the darkest hole that you've ever been in, when you're in the downward spiral, you want to know that there is the hope, there is the positive, there is the light at the end of the tunnel and for some reason we don't do that. I kind of wish we'd throw up some stories. Maybe someone comes in or we record them. I probably prefer real people versus recordings because of that connection.
Speaker 1:Piece right, but show the people that have overcome, because we dwell on the negative for an hour and then you leave and even if you came in with a positive attitude, you still feel kind of like, did we just talk about negative stuff for an hour? I don't even feel that good. So I wish we did both aspects. Everything is spectrum and balance in life. We harsh on this. This is what's going to happen. This is what you're going to see. They're going to give everything away and you know they're going to go quiet or they're going to start randomly hysterically laughing when they were a quiet person before all these things. But let's talk about the, the bouncing back, the you know, one step after another, and slowly regaining you know who you were. And getting back to that. I would love to see some success stories built in.
Speaker 2:So when I'm sitting there talking about having the money to do the research, that's part of it too. We don't have a lot of that. We have that I know. Anyway, there's not a lot of statistics on people share their stories, but there's not a lot of statistics on people share their stories. But there's not a lot of numbers on when somebody intervened, these, you know, I mean, hey, 30 people last year were at the point where they were engaging in suicide behaviors and someone intervened and said you know, um, because, whatever, at that point it doesn't get tracked as well.
Speaker 2:I guess, um, so that's part of it too, to be able to say like no, there's, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. We don't have to stay here. Um, statistically, statistically, um, more people who engage in suicidal behaviors do live, do come out on the other side. Um, statistically more, more numbers. But, as we say, like we're trying to get less than one um, try to get to that net zero balance. But no, I, I agree with you. And being able to, if you could find people willing to share their stories, that would be a good one as well. Um, if you could find people willing to share that, hey, I was here. I've seen this, that, and X, y and Z. I've had these particular issues, but being able to come out on the other side, and also what helped motivate them to get there, because it's usually a process, not just flipping a switch so what helped them get there along the process? I 100% agree with that and now I'm going to start trying to find out how to make that happen. So appreciate it.
Speaker 1:The other part I'd love to see is how they got there, because that's another thing I think is not done very well. Either you go to the briefings and it's like the same thing as if you're watching the news. When you watch the news and you see something terrible happen on there, right, you see like a school shooting. Or you see something terrible on the news you're like wouldn't happen to me, like not at my school, not in my you know city, not in my state. Well, you know, fill in the blank. Or national disaster, you know hits florida and you live in oregon. You're like, well, not me.
Speaker 1:And so I wonder, like when you sit in things, you didn't see how the person got there. You always assume, like you know they, you know were weak, or you know these negative connotations we have with they got there. But it was probably a process to get there, right, and I think we've started to touch on that. I think even your class, we, we touched on those risk factors and how they can compile. But having someone come up there and tell that story I think would really help because it's you know, the work is stressful, then it's the long hours, then it's someone passes away and then they run out of money and that you know that's how people get there. They don't just randomly wake up one day and feel like the worst day of their life. And so having you know that connection to other people again back to connection I think that would help a lot.
Speaker 1:Seeing, okay, it was a steps you know down this path to get me there, you know, and so I think that would help starting connect people because they're like I think you sit through it won't get me. You know I'm okay, I got some stuff but it's not too bad, I'll just keep going. But I wonder if you saw someone that looks just like you and just had a couple things and then a couple things turned into you know five or ten things and then that's how they got there. So I think so opening and closing would be great if.
Speaker 2:If so now I get to talk about the new training. Um, you kind of kind of learn about some of the things that go into suicide prevention, and one of those things is the, the amount of stuff that kind of combines before we get to thoughts of suicide or suicide behaviors. And some of those things could be biological factors, identity factors, physiological, psychological, and then we're talking about, like history. So, for instance, someone who was adopted or didn't have a close-knit family might react to things differently down the line. That might not affect somebody else who had a strong background, who has a strong family system, things of that nature. Psychological factors Some of us have mental disorders, mental issues. Some of us are functioning and some of us have things that we need assistance for, we need therapy and things of that nature. So there's a lot that goes into that before we even get to the life circumstance or life issue that occurs. So everything's all good until X happened, or, like you talked about a series of things that happened. So I think part of that too.
Speaker 2:Again, talk about building connection and having those connections with people and understanding not just hey, I had a money problem, but no what. Hey, look, I grew a money problem. But no what? Hey look, I grew up in this type of family. You know, I grew up in this type of family. We didn't talk about money, we didn't talk about that being a thing. And so I came in right out of the high school. I've always had a paycheck. A paycheck comes on the 1st and 15th. I'm used to doing X, y and Z. I've never had an issue until something happened. And so now we have a whole background on the individual, and a whole background on not just the situation that led there, but on their situation that brought them to that point. And so I think, being able to have that confidence and having those examples to not only just say, and having those examples to not only just say what that risk factor was or what those warning signs were, but here is the individual that got there.
Speaker 1:So definitely agree. Yeah, another thing that is one of my bigger pet peeves.
Speaker 1:I don't think I have very many, but one thing I'll remember probably for the rest of my life and it's odd that you remember certain things that are just random. So in OTS we had a briefer get up there and said you'll have no bad days. You know, you're going to poison the well, you're going to bring down the unit and things like that, and and that's just always drove me completely nuts. Uh, cause what I've done now briefing it's like the three slides or your core values or things like that. It's a brief overview of you because I don't want to get too deep right off the bat, but after three or four months I try to go back in and have a little more in depth and build that vulnerability and kind of talk through some stuff where I was raised in Section 8.
Speaker 1:It was me and my mom against the world and you know I have the death of a parent, most of my grandparents, a divorce, I co-parent and you know I go through all these things and it's in no way to be a negative, nancy, but I want there to be less of a divide and kind of, like you had touched about earlier, we got contractors, civilians, e and O and and you know, maybe it's because I'm prior e, but sometimes I feel like the gap and divide between e and o is bigger than it should be. There has to be structure, there's change of command, there's respect, absolutely, but it doesn't have to be as big. I mean, most enlisted at this point have degrees, so the thing that used to separate us was this level of school. I'm like we all have pretty much the same degree at this point. And so I go back in and try and open that up, because I've heard so many times the open door policy. The physical door is open, the physical door is open. But I have been with multiple commanders where I am not stepping in to have that conversation.
Speaker 1:Or shirt, um, sometimes I'm a little frustrated because I feel like the shirt is more there for people that are in trouble. But I guess that's a side note, I won't go down. But you have to build that connection and have a little bit of vulnerability and I think you know now Brene Brown and other people are jumping into that vulnerability. You know there's that difference between sympathy and empathy. Sympathy, you know, poor you, that sucks Like I could. I could see how. You know that's not great. But empathy, like you had said, you have that connection, you hold the space and you don't know exactly what they're going through and I will. You know, I bring those things up and I say at the end of that briefing, like I'm not saying I've been through everything, I'm just saying we can sit down and chat.
Speaker 2:I will sit here and listen to it I will two things.
Speaker 1:I will either listen or try to fix it. Just let me know Like I will start making phone calls for the people I know, the resources around, base, or, if you want to vent and dump out of here, like that's fine too, but there has to be a little bit of a you know bridging of that gap. The E&O divide does not need to be that big. We're all people people, civilian contractors across the board all going through some stuff. Uh. So open up a little bit. I think you know that teaching at ots is just insane to me, like, oh, you'll be strong every day. No, we're all people that's crazy.
Speaker 2:100 we are. We are all people. That is that's. I laugh when we hear little stuff that they teach the officers Like, uh, there was this um, it was an old, it's old, it's old, it's old. But there was this old officer book that had gotten pushed online like last year, a couple of years ago, and it basically basically said that you're the officer and the enlisted don't know any better. They're Neanderthals and they need your leadership to be able to guide them. Without you, they are lost. Um, and I just look at little stuff like that now it's like, is there really that big of a difference in how we're being taught versus how you guys are being taught? But no, definitely, and I think it's important to break down that barrier because, as you said, if they're teaching you guys that there are no bad days, you'll be the rock you strong. Imagine that every coming in that doesn't have interactions with officers or even higher ranking individuals, um, they don't know how to engage and break down that divide. So if you want that wall to come down, you have to be the one to start pulling that wall down, because they don't know how to engage. Um, and if they do try to engage it. They're gonna come in, drop kicking the wall and you're like whoa, wait time out, wait a minute, slow down a second, you know, but uh. So I think it's definitely uh a very good job that you actually get out there and do that and not everybody gets out there and does it.
Speaker 2:I brought this up in one of the trainings before. Someone was like you said it's like the door is open and I asked the question. I was like I mean, if you have an open door policy and they're like it was like cool, how many people come through the door? Why? Why don't they come through the door? And some of that has to get looked at as not necessarily what you're doing, but what environment are you setting up for these individuals? For some they don't come through the door because you've got a bunch of NCOs and lower-level officers underneath you that are handling that at that level. Oh, that's not what the DEOC said. The DEOC says that there's a problem. If you need to look at it and I bring up the deox for those who may not have it it's basically an annual survey on the climate and things that are going on in the unit situation or the organization, so that we have to do every year that comes up. So it's one of those other things that we do to try to get a feel for what are some things that we might not be identifying that we can work on. So I bring that up to say that it's important to get out there.
Speaker 2:We had a at Herbie. We had a lot of issues going on and our squadron came in and basically get sensing sessions across the board lower tier, middle tier and leadership sessions across the board lower tier, middle tier and leadership. So, working in the section and in flight, I got to get the last briefing, which is where they basically they said, hey, we're going to take, we're going to take whatever issues in place you guys have, but we just want to show you what's. What have the airmen been saying, what have the NCOs been saying? And so we had that situation and I liked the fact where I was looking at it and I said I'm not surprised. None of this, all of this that I'm looking at, nothing's like oh, how dare they? No, I was like a lot of this are issues that that we've either been working on or that have already been addressed. You know, and I was telling my counterpart, I was like I feel good at the fact of nothing was a surprise to us. Um, that means I was telling my counterpart I was like I feel good at the fact of nothing was a surprise to us. That means we're at least listening and paying attention and aware of, kind of what the climate is in the section and can we fix it, working on it. But it was definitely one of those things and I think that's kind of the start.
Speaker 2:Regardless of where you work military side regardless of where you work, having a feel for what kind of environment are you setting and in your sections or what kind of environment are you allowing to be set in your, in your circumstances, in your environments, and how do you go out and attack that? It's like, hey, people are scared to talk to leadership. Well, I'm going to go out here and start trying to break some of these walls. I want to be able to connect with people. I want people to know that, hey, when I get home, I take 10 minutes to take my boots off too. It's a thing. It's a thing. Hey, I get stuck in traffic on 98. It sucks, I get it. I hate the fact that all the gates are closed for some reason.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I believe we're down to one. That's insane, if security forces listen, please help me understand how one gate's. Okay, I don't understand. I don't. It's a whole base. It's like, hey, I get stuck in traffic.
Speaker 2:No helicopter comes to pick up the officers. We get stuck in traffic too, we out there.
Speaker 2:You know, and I've seen those conversations happen in lower levels and I think they're good, they're positive and they help create an environment for people to open up and have those conversations. You know, hey look, this person's having an expectancy problem. You know, it's not just one person or one airman that knows about it, there's like three or four people that understand and are trying to help work through it and I think that's a powerful thing to see. Outside of suicide prevention training. That's kind of the environments we want to set to make it so that individuals have resources and have avenues to go through, have avenues to talk, so they don't feel like they are out of options, have avenues to talk.
Speaker 1:So they don't feel like they are out of options. That makes sense. I got one final question for you. What advice would you give to someone who is struggling silently but just hasn't reached out yet? They're listening right now.
Speaker 2:What would you say If you're struggling right now? Understand that's normal. Understand that what you're going through is a real experience. There are people out here that are willing to help. I don't know where your location is, I don't know where you are, but I don't know where you are. But there are people out here that want to help and assist and help you get through it.
Speaker 2:Right now, you might feel like there's no other option to store the ways out. You don't see any of the exits. You're driving down the freeway, you're barely at 100 miles per hour. You're low on gas. You're running on the end. You don't know where to go.
Speaker 2:Understand that there are people and resources available to help you find a safe exit. Refill your tank. Understand that there are people that care. You are a human being going through a human experience and it's okay. You're not a bad person. You're not a failure. You're a human being and when you get up tomorrow, you will have an opportunity to continue to move forward. So I implore anybody that's out there that may feel like they are at that point, that may feel like they don't know which way to turn to reach out. The exits are there. Just because you cannot see them does not mean they do not exist, and all it takes is for you to keep moving forward. Reach out, phone a friend, call a family member, get online, find resources, connect. If you're in the States, 988 is a good resource. If you happen to be in the UK, there's a phone number for the Samaritans. Give them a call, hold a conversation, talk about options, because we're all here and we all just want to do the best job we can possibly do. Right.
Speaker 1:So absolutely. And if you want to call Dr Pagan or me job, we can possibly do Right. So absolutely. And if you want to call Dr Pagan or me, we'll be around.
Speaker 1:I remember there was a time when my dad passed away and I was scrolling through my phone and I could not find somebody to call. I felt like I was going to be bugging someone, that I was going to be bothering someone. I scrolled through. I have, you know, I don't know, two or 300 people in my phone. I didn't want to bother anybody, I didn't want to be a burden, and I remember that feeling and it was the worst feeling I think I've ever had in my entire life. I can't think of anything that was as bad as that. And so if there's ever a time someone wants to chat it's the middle of the night or whatever it is I will take that call. I might be, do not disturb, so just hit it like three times and I'll I'll pick up, but I would never want somebody to have that feeling again. It's it's, it's the absolute worst. So call somebody, we're here, but it's the worst.
Speaker 2:Definitely should shoot a message. I don't want to downplay internet or social media or text messages, because I know that's how a lot of people communicate right now. Reach out, man, just reach out. There are people willing to help. Walk with you until you can find a safe exit. There are people willing to walk with you so that you are not by yourself while you're going through the experience that you're having.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks for coming out.
Speaker 1:I hope you had a good time, demetrius man.
Speaker 2:I love this stuff.
Speaker 1:I know we can chat for hours right we're talking about?
Speaker 2:we're talking about suicide prevention. I love this stuff, yeah, no, but it's. I like being able to have the conversation. Love the people? Yeah, yeah, definitely I'm a people person to my detriment, but definitely being able to have the conversation, I think, is important. This is a fantastic, fantastic platform that you have to be able to have the conversation. So I'm going to say something real quick and you can cut it later if you want. Have you seen the new Transformers movie?
Speaker 1:no, there's a new one, bumblebee no, there's an new one, bumblebee.
Speaker 2:No, there's a, the animated one no, I want to, so I bring this tnp old guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's actually. Yes, you think he's in it, I think I think he's been with me, right, I think he is. That's awesome, uh. So, um, I listened to one of your previous podcasts and I believe it was the chaplain. He was talking about moral injury. So when you get an opportunity to watch the movie, something happens to Megatron, and when I saw it, I was like, ooh, oil injury. Just whenever you see it, shoot it out. Tell me if you feel the same way. But it's definitely what it'll say, and I bring that up simply to not only build connections, but simply to say that what you're doing is being able to open up these conversations and getting people to think about these concepts and things like that. So keep doing it. It's an awesome job, and if anybody wants to reach out to me, send an email, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can post the email.
Speaker 2:Why not? I'm going to get a lot of random emails. That'll be fun, hopefully, yeah. Other than that, just just keep, just keep pressing. Uh, what you're doing making the air force better, so absolutely.
Speaker 1:Thank you for the kind words. Yeah, I'm here just to try to blow this stigma up. I lost my grandma as a kid and I think it was just being able to not be able to chat through it. You know we're gonna keep having these serious conversations. Um, we're gonna make it normal. You know, it's the same as uh getting a workout in. We talk about uh workouts with our body, but sometimes, when it comes to these mind things, we just get a little weird about it, and you know I'm kind of weird and so we'll just keep making it weird until it's normal. So I encourage listeners to share their thoughts on social media. We got the facebook, we got buzzsprout, we got youtube. I just moved over to TikTok. I'm old so I barely know how it works, but check it out on there. You'll see Dr Pagan's short clips one to two minutes over on TikTok, if he's okay with that. But I love you all, see ya.
