MindForce: Mental Fitness & Life Stories!
Welcome to the show! We're on a mission to explore diverse perspectives and topics through podcasts and social media accounts. Tune in to 'MindForce' for insightful discussions on mental fitness and self-care strategies. Join us on 'Carer Stories' as we delve into the fascinating world of the Air Force, learning from professionals across various career fields and various other career stories. Follow us for engaging content and stay connected to broaden your horizons!
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MindForce: Mental Fitness & Life Stories!
Overcoming Health Crises: Jack Glennon on Resilience, Authentic Leadership, and Emotional Intelligence
Imagine navigating the turbulent waters of life-threatening health crises and emerging with a renewed sense of purpose and leadership. That's my story, which I share alongside Jack Glennon, the inspiring founder of Glennon Pete Coaching, who has faced his own set of formidable challenges. In our candid conversation, we explore themes of resilience, the power of storytelling, and how our personal journeys have shaped our professional identities. Jack opens up about his experiences, revealing how they catalyzed his commitment to authentic leadership and career coaching, while I reflect on my motivations for starting this podcast to foster meaningful dialogues and mental fitness.
Facing formidable health challenges, I recount the gripping tale of surviving multiple brain bleeds and a heart condition that required surgery during the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic. This harrowing time tested my limits, reshaping both my personal perspective and my approach to leadership. Together with Jack, we examine the emotional roller coaster that accompanies such adversity, from anger to acceptance, and how these experiences redefined our relationships and leadership styles. It's a testament to perseverance and the unexpected strength found in support systems, even when the world seems to be falling apart.
In a world where leadership can often feel inauthentic, we discuss the critical importance of emotional intelligence and vulnerability. Effective leadership, as we conclude, isn't about hiding personal struggles but integrating them into a supportive team environment. We delve into authentic leadership and how acknowledging personal challenges—without burdening the team—can foster a people-centric business culture. We wrap up with insights into maintaining team morale amidst change, the strengths of individual-focused communication, and the metaphor of "paper plates" as a framework for building resilience through adversity. Join us as we encourage you to engage with these narratives and insights to support your own growth and development journey.
Thank you, hi. I'm Nate Shearer and you've joinedForce, a podcast dedicated to exploring love, life and learning. Here, it's all about making sure your mind matters. Today we have Jack Glennon, and today we'll be talking about overcoming adversity and redefining identity, authentic leadership and great culture in business. Jack, I'd like to give you the floor. Can you tell us the who, what, why, who are you, what do you do and why are you here?
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, nate, and thank you for having me on your podcast as well. It's brilliant to be here. What an introduction. So, yes, my name is Jack Glennon. I'm the founder of Glennon Pete Coaching, which is an online coaching business where I specialize in leadership, culture, um and career coaching, as well as specific like sales and executives, but really focusing on those areas, and that's really formulated from my journey of, like you said, redefining my own identity and definitely overcoming adversity along the way and learning a few lessons through my own mistakes and a few mistakes of ours too.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thanks for coming on the show. I'd like to mention we do have a couple firsts today, at least for me. This is, as far as I know, the first podcast I've ever done in the morning, which is kind of cool. I had to offset for the Australian, and the second one is having an australian. So that's super cool to be uh, bouncing the signal all around the world. I'm from the uk, at least for the next three years, and uh, we're talking australia. So the world is a small place. But, jack, I want to give you a chance to ask me a question before we dive into the interview yeah, I'd love to um, what's what drove you, I guess, to begin doing a podcast.
Speaker 2:I'd love to hear yours a little bit about yourself and your history. What was your head starter going? This is I want to send a message out to the world. What was your real turning point?
Speaker 1:yeah, so I was pretty apprehensive. I mean, the online world is a pretty cool and also pretty cruel place, uh. But I went home and I was moving from Florida over to the UK and I was going through some stuff at the house of my mom's, where most of my like larger stuff still resides, as we kind of bounce around the world. And one thing that just kept coming up time and time again I'm looking through these report cards. As a kid, you know, now being almost 40, looking back at these things my mom probably still shouldn't have, and every single one of these report cards like needs a joy to have in class but talks way too much. And so I kept kind of going back and back and forth and kept realizing that we have certain gifts and tools that are given to us and it just feels a shame to waste it. So, hopefully, talking too much, getting myself in trouble, going to detention I think that hopefully goes to help someone.
Speaker 1:I lost my grandma as a kid to mental health and not being able to discuss things. I really wanted to have conversations and really the podcast it's focused on mental fitness and things like that but really I just want things to make people's lives better. If it's tools, if it's tricks, it's a journaling. So sometimes you know, I just want things to make people's lives better. If it's tools, if it's tricks, it's a journaling. So sometimes you know, I throw out the invite to guests and like, well, I'm not a mental health expert or something like that. We can all get a little bit better. So I hope, if anyone is listening, just come on the show, tell us about your life. I think just sharing stories in itself really helps us to connect with others and get better. So I'm hopefully using my talking talent. I don't know if it's a talent, but my ability that I was given, uh, for good use. So we'll move in to the interview.
Speaker 1:The first question sharing stories oh sorry, jack go ahead no, yeah, that was just.
Speaker 2:Um was just basically iterating. Sharing stories doesn't make a huge difference, because it's why part of the reason I love doing it as well is you're sharing your own journey and others can see themselves in your journey, and it makes them understand a little bit more and feel less alone, and also give them some tools, like you said, to help the navigators at the same time.
Speaker 1:And I think that's super important too in this new world with social media and things like that. We highlight all the successes, we highlight the family trips, we don't highlight the negative as much, and not that we want to sit and dwell on the negative, but I think when you are sitting in your own house and you're stuck, it's nice to hear you know other people are going through it, and so sharing the stories, I think, really helps us. Like I'm not the only one. There is hardly anything I think that ever happens in this world. We are the only one that's ever happened to Like that would be shocking if that was the case. But we'll move over into overcoming adversity. So the first question I want to ask you, jack can you take us to the major adversity you faced and share how it reshaped your identity?
Speaker 2:Great question. I'll try and do a cut down version because the journey of adversity had a couple of moments, starting off in 2019, when I was in my early 30s Believe it or not, to look at me and really accumulating throughout 2020. And really accumulating throughout 2020. So in 2019, I was away on a business trip with the London Colleges of Sales Conference. Effectively, and we will, after anyone has been in any conferences, know that at the end of the day, you often go for a couple of beers, maybe some dinner, you know, a bit of a fun time and just arriving at dinner, very odd thing happened because I walked into the restaurant and my left leg, my left foot, felt like it was magnetized to the floor. It's a very bizarre thing to think and that's definitely what my mind went to at the time. My leg was very, completely numb and the feeling was slowly going up my leg to my hip and I remember dragging myself to the end of the table sitting down, and I took my shoe off which is a very big mistake, by the way to. Sometimes you know as pins and needles what's going on and I noticed everyone was starting to get more drinks and I'd only had one beer by this point and they're getting shots, and I was like maybe that's not a good idea.
Speaker 2:Wise decision In general, life is a wise decision too, but you know, we all understand. But uh, a friend of mine was going outside for uh, for a cigarette and I did smoke at the time, to be fair, I don't anymore. I was trying to grab his attention. Come, could you, um could join you. Yeah, yeah, no worries. Come on, it's like can you, um help me without anyone noticing, which is a challenge within itself, uh, but anyway, we did succeed, um, and we got me out on the street where there was a bench and this feeling, or lack of uh, was going slowly further, my body, um, and to go to this point here, leaning kind of like that on this bench. The feeling subsided. I was like, okay, no, it's fine, no dramas. And then it came back really, really quickly.
Speaker 2:So the decision was made to go to hospital and I asked someone who came out just to see where we were. I said, you know, just tell everyone my knee's playing up and I'm being grand Theon going back and you know, you don't want to ruin it, we'll start right. And I was begrudgingly being taken to hospital. So we got to er or any, depending on where you are. Well, and usually what happens in this situation is you, you lean in, you tell them what's wrong and they go cool, brilliant, lovely to see you sit down and wait for three hours at least. Um, this was the first sign that I knew I was in trouble. Because that didn't happen, I'm leaning there with very little feeling on my friend, bless him who to this day I count as someone who is family to me because he was with me until like three, four o'clock the morning this night, um, but the door swings open and they go here's the, here's a, um, uh, where's your? My mind just went blank.
Speaker 2:Oh no, not quite a little bit later, um, a wheelchair put me on that and wheeled me through as quick as you can imagine, lifted me up onto a bed. I'm surrounded by doctors and nurses. Shirt was off, um, not in a fun way. Um, you know, lots of things were going on, uh, with, with, you know, different things, basically measuring everything part of my body, and I'm lying there a bit of a panic because I feel fine. I'm talking as I'm talking to you now.
Speaker 2:It's all very confusing and very invasive and I've always been someone who's very adventurous and very active. I was a scuba diving instructor for many years. I climbed mount kilimanjaro by this point, and done lots of adventurous things around my life, always been myself, blessing, blessing my poor mum I think I put her through the ring on, but laying there and I sort of glance at my friend and he's looking very worried, but he's sort of trying to nod and try to reassure me and I hear a doctor say the word stroke. And it's at this point real fear starts to kick in and confusion, confusion going. I can't be having a stroke. I'm I think I was 32, 33. Um, you know, I'm young, I'm ready to be fit, I'm healthy, all right, probably shouldn't smoke, but you know everything else, I'm pretty good. Um, this, this is not right, this surely this can't be.
Speaker 2:But anyway, as things proceeded throughout the night, the signs and symptoms went up and down. Um, the worst it got is I got a numb tongue, so I I like I had a lisp. Basically I couldn't really talk um, and because I was away, I actually had a flight back home the next day. So, as my, as the feeling throughout the night came back, I had, effectively, like a nurse, physio, I was doing tests with strength tests of my hands, whether I could grip a finger and push back to my foot, and she was quite incredible because I was determined to go home, I was determined to get on that plane the next day.
Speaker 2:Um, and it's this mindset you'll hear over the course of the story of overcoming adversity through stubbornness, to a certain degree, uh, of going. I'm fixated, I'm going home. So every time I won this test, I would get an hour off and I off towards my release. Um, and so I end up getting released and getting coming home, and I was stuck at home for at least two weeks. You know I can't drive because they didn't know what, what had happened. They thought it could be a stroke, but they couldn't really fix them anything specific.
Speaker 2:I had to do lots more tests once I was home over the course of the next month and the first neurologist that I had, he wasn't great and he basically told me look, we don't know. You're young, you're fit, you're healthy, take aspirin for six months as a precaution, but carry on. Your body's probably had a hiccup, which is interesting, to say the least, in terms of an approach. Um, it's the first time I started not to trust my body in my life, which you know you does it. It does change your mentality.
Speaker 2:I didn't mentally deal with the situation at all. I got very angry a lot throughout about a month, just confusion and frustration. One of my ways to deal with it was within two months, uh, I completed stupidly with three friends of mine a tough mother, uh, which I'm actually familiar with. What tough mother is? But um, isn't this a huge obstacle? It's linked to 21ks. We ran, or well, I walked some, most of it, let's be honest but lots of obstacles. It's about pushing your body to the limit and fun, and probably not something you should have two months after you just had a stroke. Um, or potentially so. That was my mentality to a little bit, stick two fingers up to what had happened and kind of everything and everybody, and go right, I'm gonna take aspirin. But this is not good in my life. This is not really my identity, because every conversation I had with everything was are you okay? You know, you're right. What after what happened? Do you need time? No, go away, leave me alone, I'm fine. Um, didn't deal with it. Great fast forward.
Speaker 2:So six months past and all fine, this was marked april 2019 and I had a trip booked with a friend of mine from the uk into india, getting a little bit extreme driving tuk-tuks the length of india amazing, recommend anybody to do it? Yes, um, so this is january 2020 and unfortunately, in the middle of this effective race, it happens again. So we're in the middle of india, middle of nowhere, and I'm buying fuel and oil out of the hole of all, I'm walking back to the tuk-tuk and I slowly go down, very slowly go down, losing the left side of my body. There wasn't fear this time. There was a lot of anger. The anger came back just in terms of frustration. I swore pretty much every word you can imagine.
Speaker 2:Anyone who's experienced a stroke, you know that there's a taste and it's really really hard to explain. There's like a metallic taste. I know the taste now. So well, I'm like I know what this is, but I've had it before and I've been okay, so I'm going to be okay. Kind of stubbornness take control. So my poor friend, who was looking very pale, was told very bluntly get me back to where we started, get me lying down and I will pop aspirin and I'll try and write into my heart rate to try and push through whatever the hell's causing this and going, because I will get better Now. Probably a normal person at this point would go to hospital after this has happened, but I'm in the middle of India and I'm going well, I don't want to bridge that and I've got a bloody race to finish. So I'm going to get better Tomorrow. I'm going to be able to walk and we're going to finish and have a bloody good time and I'll deal with this when I get home. So that's exactly what I did when I could walk. I could walk by the end of that night. We carried on the journey and had an amazing trip.
Speaker 2:Getting home, I did something a little bit odd to some people. I didn't share what had happened with my wife or my mum, who's in the UK, and some people find that a little bit odd, but there's reason behind it. It was my way of dealing with it, or the starting way of dealing with it. I wanted to go to a doctor and find out what's going on, because I knew if I told them what happened, they would ask lots of questions that I had no clue and it's only gonna make it more difficult for me. So I did lots of more further tests, um, and at this point I had to tell my wife because I was starting to wear like a halter monitor, which is a heart monitor thing. People might not know. Um I, which you have to have 24 hours, so she was gonna notice. So there's certain things I had to share with her.
Speaker 2:I had actually a different neurologist at this stage and I can't commend her enough. She was incredible because she did one very different thing than a lot of them do. She showed me the scans of everything they took from the whole body so she could really see. What she found is that I had, in fact, three bleeds on the right-hand side of my brain. So when the third one happened, who knows, but as anybody may not know, a full-on bleed on your brain is effectively a stroke. So at this point I'd had three and I was, firstly, thankful to still be around. Secondly, thankful to be pretty much unscathed, other than my tank spots had changed a bit and I had a bit of a lisp, which was then starting to get better. So then it was much of finding out why.
Speaker 2:Why is this going on? We found out that when we're born we have a partition in our heart. We have that all the time. But when we're born it's open and when you take your first breath it closes. It's serious and when you take your first breath it closes, it seals mine. For 32, 33 years it it hadn't sealed and apparently it's not that uncommon, but it can it. When I was born it wasn't checked at all and wasn't picked up, so all the time that I've been underwater on the top of a mountain if anything like this had happened, I would not be here, I'd be screwed. So what needed to happen was heart surgery with an incredible device, which is a fan, that basically goes through both partitions and opens up on each side and as the rod's pulled out, it seals. Really, really smart, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Now, if anyone's following because I'm trying to keep this as short as possible because I know you've got lots of other questions this is now March 2020. So what else is going on? Covid's kicking off. So, to add to complications, I'm having to do all this on my own. I can't go in with anybody, no one can see me because it's kind of it's locked down effectively, um, which still does put different mentality on these things. The way I dealt with the year before is I threw myself into work and I had the heart surgery this year, that year and the day after. So that was the first day of friday.
Speaker 2:I'm on my laptop and most people will be watching Netflix, reading a book, I'm working, which is not healthy and not wise and this kind of ties in with business culture, which I know you might get to. But to give you an idea, that my leader did everything he could to make sure I didn't. But I was actually talking to various people online on teams, including the hr director, and I reflect back now and I was behaving badly. I shouldn't have been doing what I was doing, but they should have disconnected me and they didn't. That's the enabled it, um, and it's all around the fact that the, where I used to work, has a big culture of we're a family and in corporate world of family it's very dangerous, which I'll get to later, but that was the first indication which I reflected later. So the heart surgery happens. I'm okay, I'm fine.
Speaker 2:I go home on the Tuesday. My wife is away at she's actually a hospital that night she's given plasma and my heart, at 7 o'clock virtually to the dot, goes mental, goes highly rhythmic and goes to a beat I've never experienced before, so fast at the blue and idiot, and panting and sweating. I throw up, I feel dizzy, all in good signs. Like an idiot, I don't call an ambulance. I call my neighbor to say, should I call an ambulance? Uh, because we, you know, I think it's more of a blokey thing. He takes one look at me and nearly passes out himself from fright and goes yeah, ambulance now. So they turn up and they get me in the ambulance on my driveway and we don't move and so I'm panting away feeling quite confused about why are we going anywhere? And they explain to me my heart rate is going 230 beats a minute and they are concerned that I'm going to go into cardiac arrest and if that happens they're going to need someone else here as well. Okay, cool, understandable reason 230 beats is very, very high. It's not sure why. It's very dangerous.
Speaker 2:So, getting to hospital, what they do is they give you potassium and magnesium and ethrodrip I can't remember which one, but one of them hurts, it sucks, having your arm squeezed. And again it's COVID. My wife can't see me. She's home now. She's been found, she's found out from the neighbours what's gone. She can't come in and see me.
Speaker 2:So I went in this cubicle of my own panting away and I called my mum back in the UK and I'm telling her what's going on. And this is at the pivotal moment, because at this moment nurses walk in at a pace and go. This isn't working. We have a big thing to do and we've got to do it which is to put you out and we're going to defibrillate your heart because we're going to stop it. We have to stop it and then we're going to try and restart it again. We have to stop it and then we're going to try and restart it again and that's the only option we've got, which is quite daunting, uh, to hear, and talking to my mom at that point was filled with fear, very much so, as the year before, and this is a really odd thing to describe. But the moment I said goodbye to my mom which I was effectively doing because I didn't know what, I was going to speak to her again and I've got so much sympathy for her because I can't imagine what that was like for another to hear the moment I hung up the phone, I went home, I was fine and some people go, well, you know, were you good with dying?
Speaker 2:Were you fine? Were you ready to go? I'm like, absolutely not. No chance I was. I went to a mindset which I didn't constantly do, it just happened of and I use this analogy or some metaphor of I was playing poker and I had one card to play, and if I'm coming back I'm damn well playing. So I started to verbalize you're gonna wake up, you're gonna wake up, you're gonna wake up. I just kept on saying out loud, um, until I passed out and then, thankfully, as obviously you can tell, they brought me back. Um, so it worked and they played with my meds.
Speaker 2:Now this event happened another two more times over the course of the next two weeks, and the third time they couldn't actually defib me because there was too much risk to my heart to do it again. So I actually had to just wait out over the whole night in hospital. It's a great way to lose weight, by the way, shed loads, um. But the course of the next six months, again, I was playing with medication and when I was giving the all clicks, basically what was causing that was my heart was inflamed from the surgery and it was really upset, really angry. So it was all over shop and the meds were running out at about 7 o'clock at night and they just hadn't got the meds right.
Speaker 2:So I was on medication for about six months and when I went to see my surgeon and the consultant, I wanted the you're fine off, you go to live your life, because that six months I wore a Fitbit, which my wife bought, which was a brilliant idea, but I had to keep my heart rate really, really low. No stress on it, so, you know, no more than a brisk walk. So no fun, no sports, uh, no excitement. No drinking with the boys, not nothing. Um, thankfully covid was going, going on, so it helped, but you know, we're still element of that. So when I had the meeting with them, they were non-committal, because they're looking after themselves to a certain degree, which I get. They were. Yeah, just be careful, you probably shouldn't do that. And I wanted I'm fine. I didn't get that. So what I did was similar to what I did the year before with Tough Mother.
Speaker 2:That day I went out and got incredibly drunk with a load of friends. I went and partied and went I'm, I'm fine. I'm clear of this. This is not going to define me and I again, it's my way of putting two fingers up, not small. I wouldn't recommend it. Um, it was my way of putting two fingers up, um, so that was, and it's, something I still deal with today. I'm physically fine. There's no reason why I should have a stroke, but when you second guess your body and you lose that trust. What happens is mentally it changes a little bit, but also what I do now. At any time my body feels a bit odd, like we all do. Say, when you stand up too fast, you look at the sun like a fool. Um, I pinch my index finger with my thumb thumbnail, sorry, and I know. If I can feel my thumbnail on my index finger, I'm fine. It's just that almost, and organically that's as short dispersion as I could.
Speaker 1:So it's quite long no, no, that's good. Uh, when you said you were in australia, I figured when the story started it was a scorpion or some you know of the 100 different things that can kill you in australia. But the stroke was a a different turn and it's interesting. The one thing I kind of thought of as you were talking through that is is how powerful the mind is when you have a goal. I mean, we've heard different things where you know work center or whatnot, and maybe it's not the best example. You know it's kind of in a negative aspect when, when everyone kind of hates the boss or something like that, when they have a unified front to you know try to get, go against something kind of. You know in regards to your stubbornness and things like that, even when you rally, you know defeat the boss. You know that's probably not the best thing for the organization. But even you know having a common goal I think really pushes you to boundaries that maybe you didn't know you you could get to before, and so it is interesting. Even you know misguided. Or you know maybe not even the, or you know maybe not even the best form or fashion, just having a goal or having something to work towards Cause. In the first one you wanted to get out of there and get home, and then the other one, you wanted to be normal again.
Speaker 1:One thing I wanted to ask you, uh, just as it came up, it really made me think about it. I lost my dad a few years ago. It was really interesting because, you know, he was coughing a little bit, his lymph nodes swelled up a little bit, but he was still biking and going to work and you know, it seemed relatively healthy. And so it's one thing that just it kind of scares me and it's just kind of confuses me at the same time, where we can be relatively healthy, walking around doing all the things we normally do, and you go in and then they're like, hey, you have stage four cancer and so, uh, you know, ultimately he fought through it, tried his best and, you know, ultimately lost the battle. But I'm curious, in your stance where you have this, you know, groundbreaking, shocking thing, how is it different when it's just world altering versus like slowly over time? You have any thoughts on like the, the shock and awe, versus like slowly getting?
Speaker 2:sick. Great question, a brilliant question, I think, so relevant, so many different people. The shock is huge. Uh, the shock factor is massive. You know, I think that can do a lot to mentally and probably, ergo, physically as well. I think it depends on the person.
Speaker 2:Some people like a band-aid bricked off, uh, you know, or you know you hear the term or prefer over a death of a thousand cuts. You know, I know, for me it was, it was the shock was horrific. Uh, actually, I mean to go back to one of your points before. I actually don't regret any of it. You know, there was a horrible journey that I went on, but all of it helped me become the person I am today. Um, you know, I feel for people close to my wife and my mom specifically. Yeah, it was horrible for them, but for me it was a journey that I'm grateful for in so many ways. Um, but yeah, I think for me it was the shock factor was horrific, but once I got my head around it and once I knew and I could control it, I was like, okay, now I know what I'm dealing with, now I know what I need to do, so it was easy to handle.
Speaker 2:So I guess the long, the long-winded thing is hard at the same time, because how much control do you have? It's also about how much life do you have. That's a big, big element, because so much during that time of not knowing what's wrong or not knowing what's causing it, you go well, I can't plan anything. I don't know if I'm gonna be here at six months and I'd like to plan a holiday with my wife or you know, buy that car or go, yeah, I'll be at your birthday, or you know, or someone's wedding, or whatever might be. Your whole life is on hold because you just don't know what's wrong with you, or don't know how long you've got, or don't know if this is going to prevent you from doing it. So it's, that's a huge element to it, and I think that's a huge element more how it affects people, because it puts your life on hold and it takes away your identity as just someone who's living your life yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1:I wanted to ask, like, what were the mindset shifts that took place? You had that stubbornness and things like that. How did you process to overcome that challenge and then ultimately redefine yourself? You moved through stubbornness, but what was the mindset shift?
Speaker 2:stuff and uh, and I think that helps in many ways. Um, I'm definitely the goals you mentioned are perfect because I did step set myself goals along the way, uh, and even to this year it was a we had a monumental one. Um, I mentioned before I was a scuba diving instructor. That's actually how I met my wife a bit cliche, she was my student, um, but this year we went diving for the first time since before I was um, had my first stroke and that was massive, because when you have a stroke, I don't know if I'm allowed to again. So I got a diet, medical and was cleared and that was huge. It was such a big part of my life but something really special for us. So these little goals that you put in place and go, that's not going to define me, that's not going to stop me living my life. It means so much and your not going to define me. That's not going to stop me living my life means so much. Um, and your mindset does shift.
Speaker 2:As I mentioned, I got angry a lot in the early stages because I just didn't know how to process it, because I didn't know what I was dealing with, and it's that lack of knowledge that gives you that reaction of push back on everything, push everyone away, you know, deal with it in a in a. Some people recluse, some people go with anger. Uh, I definitely did the latter. And once I started to know what was going on, it was easy to process. And prime example of that, ironically, is the first time I went in with my heart complications after surgery, fear, you know, talking my mom was really upsetting and then I was calm. The second time I went in I was going hi, ladies, you know, because it was so soon after the first time and it was.
Speaker 2:I know this is yeah. Yeah, I know you're gonna zap me, it's fine, I'm ready. Okay, I got me out. It was I, it was almost. I remember. You know basically the likes of the situation in many ways going. I know what's going on. Yeah, you can let me out. I know there's a chance. I may not come back, but I did it once and I'd do it again. It was. I had control because I knew what was going on almost.
Speaker 1:And then it was yeah, it was a matter of just going step by step by step. That's interesting. It's interesting how powerful normal is. I like that you mentioned that that's something that you had done. You brought you joy and things like that and getting back to that, and it's interesting how the world is small, like you said. You know, knowing the area of the UK that I live in and I'm actually a certified dive master, I got like 100 to 200 dives or so there in Guam when I was stationed there. I never made it to the instructor level, but I am a DM. I was stationed there. I never made it to the instructor level, but I am a DM, so I can take like one or two people. But it's interesting common things as we talked about stories earlier, the things that we do together and that brings us, you know, joy and whatnot going too deep and getting narked and different things like that.
Speaker 2:But I'm glad you're, it seems. I was so determined no-transcript.
Speaker 1:So that kind of touches on the personal impact to you. Can you touch on how overcoming that adversity changed your perspective on leadership?
Speaker 2:Yeah, massively. It's interesting, it's something I talk about quite a lot. When everyone's going through adversity, the people that can forward and support you aren't necessarily the people you expect, and that's a constant that I've found throughout my life. They're the ones that come forward, are often the ones that surprise you and the ones that you expect, sometimes the ones that can't handle it or don't know how to handle it, and just kind of go oh, I'm too scared. Ones that can't handle it or don't know how to handle it, and just kind of go on. But you see, everybody can't be a pushback.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I saw different people deal with, and you know, um, my journey in terms of leadership some well and some pretty poorly and the what I lean on right a lot of the moment I talk to people, a lot is about emotional intelligence, um, and it's a big passion of mine and I think it's, uh, something that's devoid of a lot of leaders, and I've experienced it myself and I remember talking to my leader. I had another leader, about a year later, um, who we were a bit of discreet with and it got a little bit heated and they blurted out how you know, basically how they supported me while I was ill. So I opened um and my response was less polite um, because that's a horrific thing to say to someone. You just can't, you just shouldn't in any context. I learned a professional one.
Speaker 2:So I I learned a lot through others and through how they performed, and through my friends as well, and and how amazing some of them were, because I think in many ways, everybody can be a leader uh, and just how they behave and them were, because I think, in many ways, everybody can be a leader uh, and just how they behave. And you know, again I'll go back to my friend who was with me that night the first time. Um, I'll never forget the, the look he gave me later on when I was really upset and I was laying there and, uh, I remember I was cold, I was shivering. I just looked and I could just tell he was saying you're gonna be okay, and just that reassuring look. And we both now see each other at our lowest of lows and I love the guy that beats his family, and that's leadership in so many ways.
Speaker 1:I find it so hilarious how we seem to ingrain in our minds much more the people we don't want to follow. I know that the positive ones are always there, but it always seems like when you ask stories like I don't want to follow. I know that the positive ones are always there, but it always seems like when you ask stories like I don't want to do that. So it seems like we always learn. I don't know, I want to say more, but it seems like we learn more from the ones that aren't that great.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, it just seems to stick with you a little harder, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:It does. I mean, I've always been someone when. So, talking to people about leadership and also myself being a leader, I've gone. I'll never try and be another leader because if I do, I'll get found out tomorrow because I'm not on me. I can take little traits and I can take ideas and I can take, um, you know, ways of approach from other people and put them in to me, but I can't be that person. So when everyone ever asking you know, do you really inspire you? Like no one, because I'm me, it's and I don't.
Speaker 2:I find certain things that people say you know, I've got certain quotes from gordon ramsey or siren cynic. They're like that's great, I love that, I love that, I love that, but I'm not trying to be gordon ramsey. I think if I try, someone would laugh at me. Um, you know, whereas you see a lot me, whereas you see a lot of leaders, I've seen a lot of leaders that are like I would never do that to someone, ever, and that sticks in your mind because it's so against the grain of who I am that it sticks in my brain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting. I wanted to ask we have a lot of buzzwords in the military and maybe throughout different organizations, but one that I think comes up. A lot of buzzwords in the military and, you know, maybe throughout different organizations, but one that I think comes up a lot.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's just coming up now, or maybe it's always been there. But authentic leadership, what does that actually mean to me? I'll take general. Setting is probably two little bits.
Speaker 1:What's the quote-unquote?
Speaker 2:right answer To me, authentic leadership is, being true, being openly yourself and allowing yourself to be vulnerable, at the same time not always having the answers, being the person with the answers in the room. I think, and something I did do and I've done all my previous leadership roles is if someone in my team asks me a question I don't know, I'll go. I'm not sure what I should, should know, so let me go and find out for you. You don't always have to be the smartest person in the room. So authentic leadership is that willingness to embrace others opinions, others knowledge, other strengths over your own um and be vulnerable with, at the same time, be authentic to you and and don't compromise so I think everything in life is in balance right.
Speaker 1:So I'd like if you could expand just a little bit more. I'm curious how do you balance opening up and being vulnerable but, like myself, I'm in a leadership position at work. How do you balance not pulling the team down with negativity, but remaining real?
Speaker 2:great question. Um think it's if you're in a really down place yourself as a leader, you should have people to lean on, whether it's a mentor or a coach or a leader yourself. So it's about channeling that negativity in the right place in the right way. If you're in having a meeting with your team and they're going nate, you're right you seem really really down right now, it's actually fun to go. I am. I'm having a bit of a tough time, but I'm good. I'm, but I'm getting. You know, I'm talking to a few people. I'm actually really on a good track, being just that little bit vulnerable to go. Thanks for picking me up.
Speaker 2:I'm obviously giving that off then I'm not okay, otherwise you wouldn't have noticed it. You are right, I'm not great, but I'm doing something about it, so you're not putting it on them. You're being vulnerable enough to be open to go. Yeah, I'm, I'm human, like anybody else. You're not going. No, I'm fine, leave me alone, which a lot of people do and pushing them away. And they're, they're going. Well, I'm stupid. I know nate, he's clearly not okay. And now I'm going to start thinking oh why, oh why, oh why, oh why, oh why, which makes it worse by being open and vulnerable, going no, you're all right, but you know I'm working on it and but thank you so much for asking um how things they do. Yes, just that respect to be open a little bit, but not putting on my shoulders.
Speaker 1:That's good. I want to just take one more. It's kind of a continuation of this one, but I'd love to hear your advice. So I'm in the medical sector, so I'm a health care administrator by trade and in the United States Air Force right now we're going through a lot of changes with the Defense Health Agency and we just did a new electronic health record, and there's always changes going on, but it feels like right now we've gone through more changes and all at the same time, more than we have in quite some time.
Speaker 1:Or maybe it's just because I'm in the middle of it, but it seems like through social media and things like that are seen in a negative way. You know, as the leader of the section, how do you keep the team pressing forward? You know, focus on the goal, like we talked about earlier, but still saying it's going to be hard, it's going to be difficult, and I think again, it must be back to balance, like you can't say everything's going to be rosy, it's going to be great, no, it is going to be difficult, but how do you keep people moving forward and not poisoning the well, but also being real, because you would hate to say like, oh, I love this. It's gonna be awesome. So how do you balance, I guess, bad news within a section.
Speaker 2:Great question, but first thing I'd say for answering it is you're not alone and it's not exclusive to you. I'm seeing more companies restructure and change than I've ever seen. I was part of one myself earlier this year, but literally I mean. People speak to clients. I've got friends, redundancies, layoffs left, right and center.
Speaker 2:The state of the financial world is not in a good place. The impending election is putting more fear in place in companies and industries across the world. At the same time, uh, not helped by, obviously, various wars that are going on. So companies are looking for every way to save money and unfortunately, post-covid, there was a big spike of profits for a lot of places and they are still expecting those profits, which is unrealistic, um, especially in the car economy. But therefore, to do that, do that. They train the fat so they speak, which I hate the term, but it's also commonly used. So, firstly, you're not a lion. Secondly, to answer your question, it's really tough right in that situation because you're and something I talk a lot about when I'm talking about redundancies and layoffs, when I'm focusing with people who have been made redundant or laid off and it's horrible for them.
Speaker 2:It's career redefining, what do they do? They're self-worth a lot. It's also the people left behind, people left behind in the business. Do they trust the business anymore? Do they trust the leadership anymore? How do you focus them on the common goal? How do you bring them back in after things might be torn apart a bit?
Speaker 2:The trick is to firstly, keep the consistent messaging and communication so so key. Again, I use the term don't try and be the smartest person in the room. If there's information you feel you can share with them, do it. Don't hold back, don't try and go. Oh, I'll let them know later because, well, I think that's probably the best for them. As much information for them as possible will empower them to know more.
Speaker 2:The other element is treat them each as individuals. They're all going to be different people with different backgrounds, with different priorities in their lives. Find out what individual goals they have and try and build those in to the not necessarily the day-to-day, but the week, the month of their working time. So you're building a bit of development plan that's focused on them. So, whilst this overall goal of the business, of the organization, is there, they can actually also ingrain their own personal development plan into that at the same time. So they feel there's always progress and with you as their leader, who is being open to supporting them on that journey, to invest in your time and your effort in that journey, they will feel the backing there and that will give them uplift, at the same time as being authentic and honest about going. You know I'm actually excited for the next stage. I know it's really tough now and all that stuff that you mentioned before, keeping the messaging consistent, but the combination of the two, I think, would really help that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you for that. I think you know we touched on goals again. People want to continue moving and you know, I think there's nothing worse than uh, being stagnant. I know, you know people say they don't quit their boss or things like that. They, you know they really quit because they don't feel like they're being challenged or they're just sitting in the same spot.
Speaker 2:In this section, though I did one Sorry to interrupt. Big one note is people want to feel valued and heard, which is huge. So if you're seeing your team discontent or upset especially when there's a period of unrest and a period of change they will be less than ever keen on sharing and keen on opening up, because they'll be worried about. If I say that I'm a bit upset or a bit annoyed by this. I'm putting my head above the parapet, so I'm not going to do that. The more you can encourage that safe environment talk about psychological safety within a team again the more you'll benefit out of it as a team and as individuals.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'd love to ask a question on that. In the military we have this thing called the open door policy. I don't know if that's like across the board or whatnot, but commanders and whatnot will say I have an open door, just swing by, and it's one thing that kind of drives me nuts a little bit. Going back to buzzwords and things like that, it sounds great. You know, the feedback or they don't want to hear, they just want to, you know, be reinforced on what they want to do. What are some advice for building that? You know, not just saying the door is open, but building that safety.
Speaker 2:Great question. So there's two elements to that. Firstly, the open door policy is great in verbal and in principle, but you've got to practice it and every leader in every company is always going to be busy, right. So how you practice that is by communication. If your team calls you, you text them and go I've got a meeting, I'll call you back in an hour. You call them back in an hour. The moment you drop that ball, you've lost their trust. Trust is so easily lost. It's easier lost than gain.
Speaker 2:So that's the first thing that I'm saying in terms of the open door policy. You've got to approach it and you've got to make sure that you're staying to the standards of communication of your team but still allowing time to push back. You know you might have a tuesday completely blocked out. Going guys, I need this tuesday clear. This is what I can't tell you too much. I don't need to tell you everything that's going on, but just, I've got tuesday blocked out. If, unless the world is burning, please just flick me an email, I'll pick it up at the end of the day, or call me first thing wednesday, allow yourself that buffer. But again, that comes down to communication. The other element to it is what I would do which comes back to people's development is I would actually try and give in each individual an hour of your one-on-one time a month. So so, whilst you've got an open-door policy, you tell everyone about it with your team so they know that one hour, 2 o'clock on Friday, for example, it is you and Steve, for example, and everyone knows that you and Steve are together for that one hour. So no one in your team calls you unless the world's burning down. So there, you can focus on steve's development. You can share. You can share what's been going on, how it's, tracking where he struggled, where his wins have come from.
Speaker 2:But the biggest thing that I find um successful is you give them a forum for feedback and you go, and I've always used a stop, start, continue method. You know, tell me, as a leader, one thing, if you've got any, that you'd like me to stop, they'd like me to start, or that you're really finding useful, you'd like me to continue. You don't, as a leader, necessarily have to agree with all three. I had a great example once of someone telling me you know, can you stop doing that? It's really, it's really annoying, and I had to disagree. I said I'm not gonna stop.
Speaker 2:But I know now why you feel that way. I'll change my approach because let me explain to you why I'm doing this and once I explained the reason, the rhyme and my method behind it, he completely got it. So I'd given him a forum to speak at events and speak. This is frustrating. This is not me. I heard him and I explained to the reason why and that was so empowering for him. He's like cool, great, I feel closer now that I can have a conversation with you and going uh, this is making me feel, you know, put upon whatever it might be and we could easily talk about it and work through it, but it's their time.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Reminds me of my favorite quote from, uh, fiercece Conversations by Susan Scott. She says multiple realities exist simultaneously. So the person being annoyed, you know, and how they felt that exists, and then you needing to do it for a certain reason also exists, but you not understanding why the person's doing it, you know, was the thing in the way, in the way, um, but I did want to ask you, going back to the vulnerability and things like that, do you have a specific story, uh, where you were able to open up and something you know that really showed your team or something like that, like a real world example of being open and how that impacted the team?
Speaker 2:oh, great question. So yes, actually, quite one of the first teams that I took on in the previous company where I was at, I was given the promotion into a leadership role in the midst of going back and forth to hospital. So my leader left the business I think it was the. It was the friday. What we talked about on wednesday not in particularly good terms, um, I I felt I had two different versions from either side, so I'll never know the full story, but I have. I look to owe my leader. That leader. I had so much respect for him. He was such a linchpin within the team so to lose him was huge and we were told he was going on the Wednesday on a team's call. And the moment that team's call dropped out, the two directors called me straight away and offered me the role and I was asking can you give me the night to think about it? You know I knew I was going to take it, but I want to speak to my wife and et cetera. And the next day I'm on my way to hospital in the late afternoon because it happened a bit earlier, about five o'clock rather than seven and I'm panting talking to my leader going. I'd like to take that job, please, you know again.
Speaker 2:Stupid, but I took on this role and on the Monday my leader had left. The team was pretty much falling apart. I was also remote. I was far away from the rest of the team, so a lot of new leaders in this position took their stamp down and go. This is the way it's going to be, and they find the most experienced person a threat so they post them away.
Speaker 2:My first call was not to disrupt things. What I did is I let the morning work in progress, meeting with everyone the same structure as the week before and I was open. I was like team, I'm gonna need your help. I'm here to support you, but I'm gonna need you to support me. I'm. I've literally got thousands of emails from our previous leader that I'm trying to sift through and understand. Um, I know, but my challenge was to bring everyone together. Uh, and I was I.
Speaker 2:What I did is, I assume, a sports metaphor which I've always used in leadership. I was the new manager coming to the team and I needed to lean on the captain, so I leaned on the most experienced person in the team quite a lot and he was my. I reckon he was the same person who was with me in the hospital that first time. So he was the person who knew me on that personal level, who I vented to on the side side and could really let my guard down, um, and be 100 vulnerable with, but therefore, bring it back with the team and go, guys, I'm really struggling, you know. Give me three hours on friday to just get through this. We'll get through it together, but you know I'm not there. So, please, I need your support, and it was that very authentic approach and vulnerable approach that really helped us.
Speaker 1:I had to be able to rebuild a team and ultimately become a very successful one. So, reflecting back on that, would you do it the exact same way?
Speaker 2:Yes, 100%, 100%. I've seen leaders young leaders as well come in and their insecurities Kick the door in. Yeah, leaders as well come in and they're insecure. If you kick the door in, yeah, they kick the door and they push people away and they ostracize the ones who they think are a threat and it's it doesn't work in the long term and it doesn't create that psychological safety in the team. It doesn't create unity in the team. Um, oh, I I definitely made some mistakes, and like we all do, but in my early stages of leadership, um, there were certain meetings that I took those off, could have done that better, but that's why you ask for feedback, that's why you're open to it and you go professionally, respectfully, give it to me. You know, what could I've done better? Uh, yeah, and that's the journey. No one knows it on the first try.
Speaker 1:It's interesting too for me, being in the military and being in that leadership type role. I think that they want us to be strong and A-type and have no bad days and whatnot, and I kind of took that when I first got into the role. But you know, now, being in seven, eight years on this side, I found it just completely the opposite. And like we talked about earlier, balance right. Like I can't come in every day and you know, be crying and things like that. There has to be some level of balance. But what I do now is I come in and I, you know, tell them, you know a little bit about myself.
Speaker 1:The wave tops, you know, at the beginning, because I don't want to, you know, go too in deep off off the bat, but about three months or you know, whatever that time frame is, I go through about how, you know, I lost my dad and my grandparents and I co-parent and I've been through a divorce and these things.
Speaker 1:That like it's not to sit here and be, you know, a negative Nancy.
Speaker 1:But I hope that it bridges the gap and I really want to try to attack the open door thing, cause I'm like, if I'm going to say open door, like I want you to know that I am not on a pedestal and I'm not much different um than everyone else on the team, so I'm not going to say I've been through the exact same thing, because that's another thing I think that you know pushes people away. We're like, oh, don't try. And you know say the exact same thing that you know I've. I'm not saying that, I'm just saying you know something relatable and you know I'm not too far away and you know, like, do you want me to try to fix it? I think that's another thing that's really important, uh, for people, because I can start making phone calls, call the different agencies and get this thing fixed. Or is it just you know a bad session where you need to you know word bomb it all over and then walk out and feel a little bit better.
Speaker 2:Um, that's great, that's great. Site safety and aq. As well as showing that empathy, um, you know, and that I love that clarity of what would you like me to do. Do you want to fix it and get on it, or do you want me to here and just be here for you? Because, as leaders, we're dealing with people and that's the core of it. You're dealing with people.
Speaker 2:Everyone's different. Everyone's got different approaches. Some people thrive in an uber alpha environment. Some guys do right, and you know, I remember growing up and having a rugby coach who screamed at us and we were the best team that year. I hate uber-alpha environments now, I can't stand them, I don't thrive in them. If someone shouts at me now I kind of lose respect for them and I'm like I don't want to do any. Thanks, you know, you kind of lose respect for them, uh, and I'm like, yeah, I don't want anything to do with you. Thanks, um, you know I'm. You know you get people who need an arm around the shoulder or and they need a kick on the backside. Everyone's gonna have different approach, but if you get your people right, call the results. Should nine times out of ten be shunned to see?
Speaker 1:and if you know your people right, if you know the people, you'll know which ones need what. I think that goes back to, like you had said, goals and things like that. Some people want the day off, some people want to go to school, some people want to. You know, do different things and so it's interesting in organizations we always want to do the blanket, like everyone gets a day off, or everyone gets this and some people want that, or or like recognition's another big one, I think, like some people want that thing on the side in their room by themselves and other ones, you know why, in front of the crowd and want that public publicity and things like that. But yeah, humans are a very complicated thing. I want to ask one question as we transition over to that business culture.
Speaker 2:What do you think are the?
Speaker 2:core values that build a great culture in business really good question integrity, transparency as much as possible, and you can build authenticity into that. Um, and you mentioned that the values value self value, people, uh, being a people-centric business and really being a people-centric business. Um and I touched on before so I'll circle back because it's something I'm quite passionate about, having lived through it um, the dangers of it that I speak to a lot of people. Um, to now, it's around the corporate world or the bigger organizations of the world, and this isn't to pick people off working for corporations or big organizations, because there's some fantastic people and some amazing jobs and, god, you can have the best of times. It's more about being corporately savvy, as I, as I use the term, cause every business has, talks, its core values.
Speaker 2:You know where values, you know where you know we're integrity, we're intelligent, whatever it might be. You know the ones that talk about being family. I would be very, very cautious of and I know this from having experienced it myself, but also seeing it in others, and there's two reasons why one just talked about all the time because it's the mantra if you're in a organization where we're all family, you work more because you have feel that sense of we, it's what we do because we're all in together. So I'm going to go over above for my family because you and I by the way, I open my arms up and go I had not only drank the Kool-Aid, I spat it out as well. I completely preached. We're a family as a leader for so many years. So I'm very open and honest about that. I went on that journey but also went out the other end Because you do go on above and I go back to. You know I'm in hospital, I've got wires coming out of everywhere and I'm working. You idiot, what are you doing? You know you're not getting paid for that. That's just crazy.
Speaker 2:That gets talked about quite often. The bit that doesn't is actually a bit that I'm more passionate about about, and it's because organizations and businesses of a large and a full variety of century have to behave like corporations and organizations and businesses, and what that means is sometimes things will go wrong where you have disagreements, where you have disciplinaries, where you have, ultimately, redundancies and layoffs, and in these businesses where the family culture is shoved down your throat so much that you bleed it that many people do, including myself. When that happens, it can do unbelievable damage. I was about six years. Six years is still not over right now, because they were ousted and it was the best time of their life and their life hasn't got back on track since because they were lost.
Speaker 2:Even myself, getting married redundant, happens all the time. You can probably deal with it, but when you're that in, you lose your sense of identity, you get that sense of you don't want me anymore, I'm not part of this family anymore, I'm not valued, I'm not loved, if you like. It's like a breakup and that's not normal. That's not normal in business, that's not normal in life, that's not healthy. Because corporations need to behave that way. They, they need to go spreadsheet. We're losing money. Where can we save it? Sorry, we've got to lose 10 people. It sucks, but it's just reality and that's how a lot of businesses work and that's fine, that's just low. But you can't have both, because the damage can be, you know, irreparable to a certain degree for a long period of time, where people lose that trust in who they work for, who they work with, and it's really, really dangerous.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. I'm one that's always done the family thing, so now I guess I've got to ask what is that replacement? Or how do you have a team and keep them on the same page, but don't go into the family atmosphere.
Speaker 2:Great question, I think. To come back a sec, family businesses are awesome, but I think when what I would like encourage people to go is think of what family business is in your mind and I, when I've said that people often think of you know a small deli with mom and pop and granddad, you know, had it for generations, generation, generations, it, generations. It's amazing. The more of those we have, I think the country will be a better place, probably better food as well, to be fair. But be it.
Speaker 2:There's nothing wrong with being a team. There's nothing wrong with being part of a team. It's not a family, though. There is real distinction. You can be valued in a team, but you're an employee. You're an employee of a business, of an organization, but you can have within a organization, you can have your own team and you're really close and you know you become mates and your mates after you work there.
Speaker 2:You know, I've got close friends and people I used to work with, you know from different industries and different businesses. They're awesome mates. That doesn't change because of where I work, but some of them have progressed through life as what I would count as family, but it's got nothing to do with where they worked. I say a lot to people this term fall in love with a job. Don't fall in love with a company because you can love your job and you can have a passion for your job and it can give you a sense of value and a sense of purpose and you can take that job loads of places in the world, loads of different organizations. Don't fall in love with a business or a company because I'm sorry, but the company will never love you back.
Speaker 1:Dang, those are good words. Okay, Jack, what's one piece of advice or wisdom you'd give our listeners to hold on to after hearing your story?
Speaker 2:I'd give two One of my own and one stolen. Absolutely the stolen one is I referenced him before is from Gordon Ramsay and I watched a great interview with him recently. He's talked about adversity a lot and how he was dealt a lot of adversity when he was younger, when he was growing up and with his brothers drug addictions and all sorts Someone I have a lot of respect for. He talked about adversity in a sense that the earlier you're dealt a hand the better, because it helps build that resilience, and no one grows without resilience or without adversity. And he used a great term he said never be afraid of the storm, get comfortable dancing in the rain, which I just love. That I think that was awesome.
Speaker 2:So that's the stolen one. The one from me is one I'm trying to tell everybody really, which is in your lowest of low moments, when you're really struggling. Look up and have a look around. See the people that have stepped up, stepped forward and that are still here, not just at the beginning but throughout that journey of your adversity and your struggle, because they are the truest reflection of who you really are and because of that knowledge you know you're going to be okay.
Speaker 1:One I'll pass over to you, jack. It's one of my favorites. One of my very first episodes I had the wonderful Laura on the show and she went through a suicide attempt and then had to go inpatient for a little while. But one of the tools I gave her was called the paper plates, and I'd never heard this before, but it's one of my favorites is if you have a single paper plate, you're at the cookout and someone puts a big hearty meal on your paper plate out and someone puts a big hearty meal on your paper plate, it's gone straight to the ground.
Speaker 1:But every time you go through things and you've gone through the hard thing and you know you're adding paper plates. And so when you do get that big meal or that hard thing that goes through, you've built up those paper plates. And so I love the visual of the representation of resiliency. We don't get that, you know, right off the bat. We don't get it by going through the easy things. It's the difficult things that are adding up those paper plates that maybe are now more like a porcelain plate at some point. But the paper plates I thought was great, because I've heard rubber bands and bouncing back and things like that, but the stacking of plates after going through difficult situations I thought was really good. That's fantastic, great one. Well, thank you, jack. Jack, I encourage listeners to share their thoughts on social media. We got the facebook, the buzzsprout, a youtube tiktok trying to get all over the place. With the time that I got it's time consuming to create content, but hopefully helping someone out there. Thank you much for coming on the show, jack my pleasure, my absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for having me thank you, you, thank you.
