Embracing Career Change: John Tarnoff on Intuition, Networking, and Discovering Your True Calling

Mid-career transition presents a profound opportunity for individuals seeking to redefine their professional paths, often driven by the recognition that life is both lengthy and filled with possibilities. John Tarnoff emphasizes the importance of embracing fear and overcoming limiting beliefs while sharing practical advice on leveraging connections to pave the way toward a more fulfilling career.

• Understanding the significance of mid-career transitions 
• Challenging preconceived notions of job satisfaction and fulfillment 
• Overcoming fear and addressing limiting beliefs 
• The necessity of networking in discovering new opportunities 
• Discovering personal calling and reconciling past experiences

https://mindforcepodcast.buzzsprout.com

Chapters

• 0:20 Mid-Career Transition and Reinvention
• 13:41 Evolving Career Paths and Self-Discovery
• 25:48 Overcoming Limiting Beliefs and Imposter Syndrome
• 36:58 Networking for Career Success
• 45:51 Unleashing Your True Calling

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:20

Thank you for watching. Hi everyone, I'm Nate Shearer and this is Mindforce. Join us as we explore love, life and learning, because your mind is what matters most. Today we have John Tarnoff and we'll be discussing mid-career transition and reinventing yourself, john, thanks for coming on the show.

Speaker 2: 0:48

It's great to be here, Nate. Appreciate you having me on.

Speaker 1: 0:51

Absolutely so. We'll start with the warm-up. The who, the what, the why. Who are you? What do you do and why are you here?

Speaker 2: 0:59

Right. Who am I? Isn't that the question right for?

Speaker 1: 1:02

all of us.

Speaker 2: 1:02

Who am?

Speaker 1: 1:03

I Isn't that the question right for all of us.

Speaker 2: 1:05

Who am I? Is that the question? No, I mean in a more mundane way, I'm a career transition and executive coach. I'm based out of Los Angeles. I come at this practice, which I've been doing for about 12 years now, out of a long career in the entertainment business as a film studio executive and producer. You might think that's a kind of a strange segue from entertainment into career coaching.

Speaker 2: 1:33

But what led me into it really and I guess this gets into the what what led me into it really was a realization after I turned 50 that my interest really in the business, which I thought initially stemmed from why does one project get made and one doesn't? So you know, you look on all the stuff that's on TV and you say, why did they make that right? It's either because it's great, how did that get through or it's terrible. You know who's the genius who let that one through right. So I always thought those were kind of fascinating questions. It's a complex industry, it's a complex process, it's a collaborative art form. But what I realized and my jobs really as a producer and an executive trying to pick projects and work with talent, I realized it's all about the talent, right, it's all about the people and whether it is nurturing talent, getting people to collaborate with one another, really understanding how chemistry can really improve the quality of a project or kill a project.

Speaker 2: 2:37

And you see this really primarily with actors. It's the most obvious thing. You look at two people on screen and go they have no chemistry. What are they doing in this movie together? Why is he interested in dating her? Why is she the love of his life? It's like no, you can see that it just doesn't work. Conversely, when two people really hit it off on screen and it can be in a romantic situation, it can be in a buddy comedy you go, whoa, I want to see those guys work together, right. And this is why you kind of see recurring pairings up of people because it works, the audience loves to see it.

Speaker 2: 3:11

So I thought, well, how does this apply in work, right? And why is it that some people are natural born leaders? Why is it that some people can lead teams effectively? Why are certain people really good at their jobs but they're not necessarily kind of the people who light up a room? All these kinds of factors I thought increasingly interesting as I progressed through my career. So I got to the point in my career.

Speaker 2: 3:37

My last kind of straight job in the business was working for DreamWorks Animation the Shrek and how to Train your Dragon people, and I did that for most of the 2000s in what became a people role which was really fascinating for me, and I was working with all sorts of really talented artists and technologists to help them work better individually and together and do great projects. And I thought it's time in my life to kind of get out and do something on my own. So I thought it's time for me to kind of put up my own shingle, go out, start consulting.

Speaker 2: 4:12

I initially didn't think I was going to go into career coaching, but that is what wound up happening, because people kept coming up to me, particularly after I did a TEDx talk on this topic of career transformation which just kind of came to me out of the blue, and people say, oh, do you coach? I thought, oh, maybe this is a pathway I should consider. So that's how it started. It's been 12 years. It's been a great ride. I work with people one-on-one and in small groups and it's just been great.

Speaker 1: 4:40

That's awesome. Yeah, I always find it so interesting and it's it's just crazy to me. As you grow up, I feel like when I was younger I always thought that people pick the job for money, titles and things like that. But time and time again you see that people are are choosing places where they feel valued and their co workers enjoy their company and it's just funny. You have to get older to really understand the things that are going on Because, yeah, you just think if they got paid more they'd stay or they do better or things like that. But it's a really good point.

Speaker 1: 5:13

The connections and chemistry and teamwork are a pretty tough thing. I'm sure you probably got some pretty good stories, but I'm kind of curious when you took that leap of faith and whatnot, what was that transition? You, you had this you know steady thing. You did the Ted talk and then like, how was that transition? Um over to that first you know consulting thing, the first job, did you feel like you made the right choice initially? I mean 12 years now? I guess you can look back and do some reflection back and do some reflection.

Speaker 2: 5:42

Yeah, the first few years were. I guess the first few years were tough. I mean it was in a way it was a brave decision, you could say that because I kind of fired myself from my job at DreamWorks. I had signed on there to do a particular set of tasks and projects and help them kind of build their staff out of startup mode into kind of industrial production mode. And I'm not a steady state kind of a guy. That's kind of why I went into entertainment, because I love the project nature of it. I love the idea. You find an idea, you put a writer together with the idea, you get a script developed, you find a director, you get it cast, you go into production, you edit it, you market it and it's done and it's out there On to the next one and I guess maybe I've got a bit of a short attention span. So you know, it always helps to have something new on the horizon and I realized that at DreamWorks that was not going to happen anymore, that the work that I had come there to do was over.

Speaker 2: 6:43

And I actually went to the COO, who I reported to great woman and I said to her look, this is going to be a strange meeting, I said but I got to ask you, is there anything left for me to do here? And she turned bright red and she said I'm going to ask you the question. But first of all, I want you to know we love you, you've done a great job, it's been fantastic having you here. But since you asked the question, probably not. And I thought, okay, that's kind of the way it's looking to me. So she said, no, look, don't you know? Let's think about this. See if there. You know, you know everyone here, go around, check out what we're doing. You know, we know what the agenda is. Is there a way where you can do what you do best and help us optimize these initiatives that we have going? And I looked around, I talked to all of my colleagues there and it wasn't right. I mean, I would have had to move to India or move to China, because that's where all the growth was happening. And I thought, you know, I'm not going to do that, I don't want to pick up stakes here. So I thought, okay, it's time for me to go.

Speaker 2: 7:45

And it was initially. Initially picked up some consulting gigs. I was kind of feeling it out, but I had a real setback that that absolutely, absolutely just threw me for a loop and I had a a real proof of concept client and all of the workforce development stuff that I had done at DreamWorks had really come down to a few key programs. And this is a guy who was in a very different business. He's someone that I had known from my startup days. He was he was at that time was an, had been an investment banking advisor and he had connected us to a number of the investors that wound up putting money into the startup that my partner and I'd been an investment banking advisor and he had connected us to a number of the investors that wound up putting money into the startup that my partner and I had at the time in the 90s, and so I really trusted this guy and we had kept up over the years and he had gone into a different field. And he came to me and he said look, you're leaving DreamWorks. I've always been impressed with the work that you did there with your staff development. He said I'd like you to come in and train some of our staff and put this to work across a number of our locations.

Speaker 2: 8:51

I thought great, so went in, met with his partners, met with the management at these locations, talked to some of the staff, kind of did an assessment, did an evaluation, made a proposal all good negotiated back and forth, made a deal, had a start date, signed a contract and I called him up on like a Thursday or a Friday, said okay, so I'm starting Monday. Where am I going? Am I showing up to this location? Or that. Never heard back from him Email, texted, phoned. I got completely ghosted on a signed deal. I wasn't going to sue them. I mean, where was I going to get a lawyer to sue them? Right, it's December of 2009,. Right, I've got some severance left from DreamWorks, but it's not going anywhere. I got to get work, so I just hold on my big boy pants and I just persisted through.

Speaker 2: 9:51

But it made me realize that resilience is paramount because you never know what's going to happen. You can never be sure of anything until it's in the past, until it's done. Right, and that was a. That was a real shocker for me. And uh, and I actually call up a career coach that I knew and I said to him I know how I'm going to pay you, but I need some guidance here. I need to figure out what my pathway forward is, because I'm completely blindsided. It's like I've had a emotional concussion here from this right.

Speaker 2: 10:36

I was on this track, I had it all planned out, I was ready to go, and now I have nothing. So I put all these eggs in this basket go. And now I have nothing. So I put all these eggs in this basket, believing this was my kind of wedge into this new life and career. And now I have nothing. So I worked with him for about three months and it was, you know, money that I didn't have, but I had to spend it because I needed the direction, I needed the support, and I wound up turning right around and within three months I had this great offer in a very different area. We don't have to go into it right now, but it really got me back on track and it was in the education space and it was co-running a program that was really drawing on a lot of skill sets that I already had. It was perfect and I did that as a kind of a halftime side gig for 10 years, while I was in the career coaching program.

Speaker 2: 11:31

So you never know where the disasters are going to happen. And then you never know where the, where the, you know epiphanies and the pots of gold are going to are going to occur in your path.

Speaker 1: 11:44

Absolutely when one door closes. I guess that's a pretty true phrase. Before we get into the foundation of the episode, I just wanted to see if you had any questions for me.

Speaker 2: 11:56

No, no, absolutely. I just really want to acknowledge you on the topics that you are talking about on this broadcast. On this broadcast, I think it's really important that people really understand that they have agency with their lives and in all aspects of their lives and that they can use techniques and practices to make themselves stronger and more resilient and more insightful about themselves and about working with people. I think it's great.

Speaker 1: 12:21

Awesome, thank you. Yeah, I'm glad you came on the show. Sometimes people get nervous with mental health and mental fitness and some of the things I'm like. Really, we're all about trying to make people's lives better here, so it really could be any topic. So, if anyone's listening, once I come on the show on the edge on the fence, it's really just about making people's lives better. So the first big question I got for you, john, to really lay this foundation, is what does a mid-career transition mean to you and why do so many people experience this urge to reinvent themselves at this stage in life? It seems like it's coming up. More and more people want to reinvent. What does that mean to you?

Speaker 2: 12:59

I think it's a combination of a lot of factors that are coming together at this particular time. Number one we're living longer, just statistically, if you are around 60 today, you have a better than 25, veering towards 30% chance you're going to live past 90. So if you're younger than 60, if you're like in your 40s or 50s, just imagine that number is probably going to go up in terms of the percentage of people. So if more people are living longer, what does that mean for how we look at the time span of a career? In the old days you would think that the career is based on three factors. Traditionally, you get a good education that entitles you to work in your chosen profession for 40 years and then you get to retire because systems paid in for you, whether you've paid in or got some kind of pension or whatever you've paid in or you've got some kind of pension or whatever. That's kind of the expectation or really the myth of 20th century labor force. But things have changed right. Defined benefit pensions are going way down unless you are in some form of local, state or federal government for the most part some labor unions, but for the most part we're working in this 401k world and that's actually not a particularly universal practice to have a 401k in your company. So I'm not sure what the statistics are, but it's actually really low. It covers a lot of people, but it's mostly people in larger organizations. So if you think about the entire breadth of business in America, small business accounts for most of the employment, but only 15 to 20%, I think, of companies overall have 401k plans. So most people are relying on themselves to save for what could be a 30-year retirement, perhaps in conventional terms. So I think we have to look at going from this 40-year career to the idea of a 50-year career, maybe even a 60-year career, and it's not going to be the career that our parents had. It's not going to be.

Speaker 2: 15:22

I work in one job, I keep going. If I lose that job, I've got to quickly get another job. I can't break the chain and then I'm done. It's going to work very differently. There are going to be breaks. There are going to be breaks for family and caregiving. There are going to be breaks for more education. There are going to be breaks for mindfulness and kind of reconnection to self.

Speaker 2: 15:46

All sorts of more phased approaches, I think, to living and career, where this typical ding that you get. If you've got a gap in your resume and you're thinking, man, I'm going into this resume, into this interview, they're going to kind of nail me on this gap, how do I explain the fact that I was out of work for a year and a half, or that I worked in three successive jobs no longer than a year? What was wrong with that? Right, it's got to be the employee's fault, right? There's something wrong with you if you can't just kind of perform and get exceeds on your performance reviews.

Speaker 2: 16:23

I mean, I think all that, little by little, is going to go away as people realize that it's not about those external metrics of I showed up every day at work. It's more about what value did I provide at work. And if I provided significant value in three successive one-year gigs, that's important, right, that's valuable. And if I took a year off to travel and write a book or do a podcast to learn more about life, the world meet more people, get clearer about my direction. And now I'm back and I'm more committed to work than ever, isn't that valuable for a company to say, wow, I'm not hiring some person who's going from job to job just because they need to have the job. They're here because they want to be here.

Speaker 2: 17:23

So I think it's a whole new world that we're looking at and I think people in mid-career back to your question are kind of going huh, what am I going to do now? If I'm living longer, if I've gotten more choices? What is it? What's my purpose? Right, who am I? To your initial question right, and that is what I'm working with with my clients is trying to figure out those questions of if I've got this extended period of time that I want to be working and, by the way, that I'm going to need to be working, how do I make this really purposeful and meaningful and enjoyable and impactful and useful for people?

Speaker 1: 18:01

Yeah, so one thing I'm really interested in is how do you know when to take the step? Because I feel like I've had different episodes on relationships and you know various things and I feel like a lot of times we'll put up with a little bit of discomfort for a really long time. It's like if it's not too bad, you'll kind of just keep going. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:23

So how can you tell syndrome right?

Speaker 1: 18:26

Right, yeah, in the pod, exactly, yeah. So how can you tell someone it's time for change? Are there like common signs or do you have any advice on that?

Speaker 2: 18:36

I've struggled with this a lot in my life and I mean just to kind of get right to the heart of it. I was in a marriage for 15 years. It ended in divorce. It started off great. It went the way it went. No, no disrespect to my ex, but I remember being in therapy and asking my therapist when do I know when it's over? And he said to me how do you feel today? Is it over? Today? I said no. He said well then it's not over.

Speaker 2: 19:04

So it's a it's a bit of a Zen answer. Right, it's a bit of a dodge, but at the same time, I think we have an inner knowing and I think we have to trust ourselves. We have to trust that we are on a path and if we have set a clear intention whatever that intention may be, that attention may be I've got to figure out a way out of this job because it's toxic. Got to figure out a way out of this job because it's toxic and I am gradually dying inside every time I go in but I don't know what to do. I'm going to set the intention to spend 15 minutes a researching other careers and I'm not going to put a kind of a goal on it that I have to find another career. I'm just going to explore. I'm just going to let my mind wander freely, spend maybe 15 minutes when I wake up in the morning or 15 minutes before I go to bed at night just doing some internet searches, or maybe I'll, I'll, I'll browse through profiles on LinkedIn and I'll just kind of open my mind to other ideas. That's one approach to readying yourself for that inner decision where you say, okay, I feel like I have enough information or I have this increasing sense of certainty that I can find something, that I am valuable to someone else, whatever that frame of mind is or whatever that message is that you're hearing inside. But I guess the answer to your question is that it's a process, right, knowing what your decision point is going to be, and particularly for something as significant as a career. It's not something that you want to do overnight, right?

Speaker 2: 21:01

Career is right up there with you, know marriage and you know close relationships. I mean, we spend so much time with our jobs, right? I mean it's you know the joke about you know having an office wife or an office husband, someone who's a close coworker. It's true, it really is someone that in the best of all possible situations it's someone that you're very close with, you have a business relationship but still you laugh with a person, you have successes with that person, you commiserate on failures with that person, so it's a real relationship.

Speaker 2: 21:39

It's another reason why it's hard to leave a job because you're leaving all these relationships. You know you may have a toxic boss, but everyone in the department is great and maybe you're all kind of bound together because you all feel like you're laboring under this unfortunate situation. I mean, I don't know, I'm kind of spinning this a little bit, but try to get back to your question. It is a process you kind of know. When you know you have to trust yourself on some level. I don't know if it's trusting your instincts, it's trusting your inner knowing, and hopefully that's a pathway forward for most of us to get to the point where one day we wake up and we go okay, today is the day.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Yeah, it reminds me of a term that sometimes drives me nuts a little bit is when you get something that you've worked really hard for and somebody will say lucky. And it always just drives me a little nuts. Because your point putting in the work I think you put yourselves in the right rooms, you do the right things, you come in early, you stay late, you put in the time. A lot of people don't see the time that you put in and then the luck quote unquote shows up in the place you want to go or the promotion or things like that. But you had to put the work in. I always love the, the meme, or the picture of the the iceberg, where it shows all the work that happens below the water, but then the top, all you see is the successes and the good days and but it doesn't see the, the long nights and away from your kids and family and things like that.

Speaker 2: 23:16

So um, I think that's a really important thing. One of the definitions of luck is that luck is the intersection of preparedness and opportunity being prepared.

Speaker 1: 23:27

That makes sense, and I think it kind of leads us into my next question Um, what's one of the biggest barriers to reinvention? I feel like it'd probably be fear. I think we're set up to preserve ourselves, be safe. You know, going back to caveman days and things like that. I'm not going to have enough money and so you're not sure you're going to be able to take care of yourself and family. How do you get over the fear and uncertainty?

Speaker 2: 23:56

self and family. How do you get over the fear and uncertainty? Sure, well, I would start by saying that fear is an acronym for false expectation appearing real. I don't know if you've ever heard that one. No, it's a good one.

Speaker 2: 24:04

It really, I think, speaks to how we imbue fear with such power and that it is a mindset question, right? The next, the broader answer to your question is that limiting beliefs. I believe really that's funny to say limiting beliefs. I believe Limiting beliefs are the key to a lot of this behavior change stuff, lot of this behavior change stuff and understanding what our limiting beliefs may be.

Speaker 2: 24:47

Imposter syndrome is one Believing that there's no changing possible in, let's say, a corporate environment, right, or that people don't change, or people are this way or people are that way, or I'm this way or I'm that way. I'm not the kind of person who, if you ever hear yourself saying that, stop, because that is a limiting belief. You know you as a person are constantly changing, growing, evolving. Your mind, your brain is constantly evolving. We've learned in the last 20, 30 years about this concept of neuroplasticity, the idea that we used to think that the brain you grew up, your brain, was set and then your brain was your brain for the rest of your life. Right, it didn't really change. But we now know that that's not true, that the brain does change and that you can change your brain. You can literally through habit building and repetition and focus you can change your brain. You can change the way you think about something, the way you feel about something and the way you act about something.

Speaker 2: 25:48

Athleticism is any athlete will tell you is 90% mental. It is that willingness to push yourself and that is a mental construct. It has nothing to do with your body Not talking about everyone's performance being the same but for you and your performance, what's coming between you and that achievement is likely your mental state. So that is the number one thing that I find in working with people is that they bring these limiting beliefs to the table about who they are, what they can do, how the world works, what they're able to do about their current situation.

Speaker 1: 26:32

That makes sense, but there has to be some level of realism, right? Like if you're like I want to be Beyonce tomorrow, like that's not going to happen, so how do you balance? I mean, everything in this world is about balance. So how do you have realism but you're not setting yourself back by fear?

Speaker 2: 26:47

The. The principle I use is the 50% rule, the 50% believable rule. If you have an idea about where you want to go, make it 50% believable, at least 50% believable. So if you're making, you know, $50,000 a year and you want to make a better salary, don't say I'm going to make a half million dollars next year. Right, have a more reasonable goal. What is 50% believable? What is a stretch goal?

Speaker 2: 27:15

If it's reasonable to say well, you know, in this particular job, I know what other people are making. You know, I could maybe get a $25,000 raise. Well, maybe you should give yourself a stretch goal of $100,000. And say to yourself well, is that 50% believable? Is it possible? Yeah, it is possible. I know this one guy who did it, you know, and he had to work really hard for it or whatever that set of things were that he did, but he made it. So maybe I could do that. You know, it's worth putting kind of a rule of thumb for me. Is the idea of 50% believable as a, as a stretch goal for for making a plan or trying to lift yourself out of your current situation?

Speaker 1: 28:03

I like that. So, in the 12 years you've been coaching, what is your proudest moment? It all came together and what was something that just fell apart, and you'll never do that again. Wow, and what was something that just fell apart and you'll never do that again.

Speaker 2: 28:15

Wow, I have to say I have not had that kind of range of experience right. I feel like that range of experience is kind of behind me in many ways. The peak experience for me coaching people is getting off a call with a client where we have gone deep on a particular question that they are struggling with and we talk it through, we explore the options and very often there are moments of silence on these calls where people are really thinking. And I'll give you one example, and this relates back to limiting beliefs I was working with a guy last year who is an executive in the enterprise software space, senior executive responsible for a number of international territories.

Speaker 2: 29:15

The company was acquired by a bigger competitor. He did not like this company, did not like their culture. He knew that there were going to be reductions in force and he knew that his team was on the block and so he decided he was going to leave and he had an offer. He took the offer. It was a smaller company, really aligned with his sense of mission about his business, and we worked to help extricate him from the former company and then establish himself in the new company.

Speaker 2: 29:56

And I asked him at one point. I said so let's talk about the future. One of the reasons that we're working together is for you not to just get yourself into this next job, but to really apply this methodology that I teach to the rest of your career and to the rest of your career growth. Where do you see yourself in 10 years? And he was stumped. And not only was he stumped, I think he was afraid to think of that point and we started talking about it and he said well, I really don't know. And and I was pushing him I said so look, you're now a senior executive You're, I think he was. You've got another at least 15 years, maybe more, maybe 20 years to your career. What about the C-suite? And I could see his face fall and he said well, I have to tell you, I've never really thought of myself as a C-suite kind of guy. I said interesting I said why.

Speaker 2: 30:53

He said, well, I never talk about this. I just don't feel that I deserve it, that I'm that good. I said, well, interesting. I said well, what would you, what would you call this? And he said he said yeah, yeah, yeah. He said this is my imposter syndrome and it was a.

Speaker 2: 31:15

I mean I'm moved to talk about it now because it was such a, it was such a key moment for him to realize that he was holding himself back from opportunities to be a leader on a level where he clearly had the capability of doing it.

Speaker 2: 31:34

I mean, this is a guy with credible integrity and passion for his work and a vision for his business, and I mean just a stellar guy. I mean just a stellar guy. But he was, you know, he came from a background where, you know, you're always supposed to kind of uh, uh, keep your head down, not get noticed, right, just do your work, don't, you know, don't, don't, don't, become a target and and and that really was running him on a certain level, and he was. He was actually kind of overachieving to get to the level that he got, but he felt like that was really special. Even you can call them sacred moments with someone where there's this realization of what they're capable of doing and that they have this kind of calling, that's that's speaking to them and they're now able to respond to it. That's that makes it all worthwhile.

Speaker 1: 32:46

The imposter syndrome is super powerful. It's tough and it's interesting to me because I feel like, if you are aware enough, it's almost like you're. If you're a crazy person, like if you're aware enough to know that you are, then are you even crazy, cause you're aware enough to know that you are. So it's kind of almost like a catch 22. I'm active duty military and I crossed from enlisted over to be an officer, and so I remember the first couple of years I really struggled and it wasn't until I forget if I was reading a book or if someone talked to me. But they reframed it for me and it really helped me.

Speaker 1: 33:21

And you know, I still struggle from time to time, but I try to think back and what they had told me was there was people that was on the board that selected you. There's people that put you in positions to do these certain things. So if you are doubting yourself, you are disrespecting the people that have chosen, have reviewed your stuff, have picked you for these positions. And I really thought of it from that way, because I feel like it's easy to tear yourself down. That seems like an easy thing, not that I'm saying we should, but it's easier to do it to yourself, but when I thought of these people that I admired, that were my mentors, that were super important to me, and I was then disrespecting them, right, that was really difficult. I was like I can't do that.

Speaker 2: 34:13

I need to do what I need to to make sure I represent them well and, you know, make them proud and things like that. So that reframing really helped me. That's really, it's really great. I love that and it reminds me of a of a kind of conversations that I would have.

Speaker 2: 34:19

So I mentioned before that I, when I got ghosted by that company after I left DreamWorks, I got hired on to co-run a graduate program for Carnegie Mellon University, based out here. It was an entertainment master's program in management, so it's like an MBA for entertainment, and so I was working a lot on career with people at the very beginning of their careers and going into entertainment management type roles in marketing and production and research and across film, tv and games and music and a lot of fear around. Oh my God, I wasn't me on my first job and it's a tough business. And what happens if I get fired? And and I would always say to people look, it's not that people want you to fail.

Speaker 2: 35:06

If they're tough on you, it's not that they want you to fail. They just want you to pick yourself up off the floor and try again. They really want you to be strong and resilient and they're testing you. So don't take it as a judgment against who you are and what you're capable of. Take it as a test of your own resolve and your own sense of purpose and and bring it. Bring it back. Don't be afraid to go back in and try again and take the hit, but try again it makes sense.

Speaker 1: 35:45

Yeah, I find it interesting that there's certain things that we have like requirements for degrees and things like that, and sometimes I think that the requirement for the degree isn't necessarily the knowledge of it, but it's more just that you would go to class for four years and do the homework and, you know, put in the time and effort. I mean, some things are obviously very specific, but sometimes I think that's just to show the determination. Like the degree is a piece of paper, it doesn't necessarily mean all that much, but I think the point of you know, when people are looking at it from a hiring standpoint, is where are you going to show up and be dedicated for four years or whatever? You know however many years your degree is representation? Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 1: 36:28

I had another question for you. You kind of touched on it earlier but just wanted to expand a little bit more on it. If someone is feeling stuck, they know that they're just not in the right spot, but they don't really know where to go. I would think there'd be people that you know maybe do what their family's always done, or you know they've only had one job ever. They don't really have a lot of different experiences. How do you like get out of that and try these different things? You said starting some research and things like that or some other ways to try to figure out what you're meant to do.

Speaker 2: 36:58

Yeah, networking is the number one answer to everything when it comes to career in various ways, but basically, it's other people, right? It's enlisting the support of other people, and that support is as simple as a sounding board. It could be someone who's more active and refers you, introduces you to people. It's someone who could be educating you about a particular set of skills or opportunities that are out there. But you can't do this on your own. You just can't, and particularly today when it comes to applying to jobs. I'm constantly running into people on LinkedIn who are saying oh, I applied to a hundred jobs and I've never got a single response to 100 jobs and I've never got a single response. Or 300 jobs I've never gotten a single response. And I say to them well, your first mistake is that you're applying to jobs online and expecting to get a response, because there are 250 people on average applying to that job. At the same time, many of those jobs that you're applying to have been filled. They just haven't been taken down, so, of course, they're not going to get back to you. A number of those jobs are kind of honeypot listings, where there really is no job there. They are just looking to collect resumes and just see what's out there, so you don't know what's going on. You're completely blind.

Speaker 2: 38:30

If you're applying to jobs, what you need to be doing is meeting people. Talking to people, making friends, building relationships and, through those conversations, figure out who you are, what you love to do, what you do well. Analyze the response that you've gotten in your current job. Look at that performance review. Take it seriously. Don't feel defensive about it. Look and see if there really is some valuable information there. Take the intention of the person giving you the review into account, because not everyone is there to have your back. Sometimes people are there to control you and make you toe the line. So be smart about it. But look for positive opportunities wherever you can and use your network connections to find them, and that would be the first paradigm shift. I think that would be important for people to adopt if they're feeling like I'm stuck, I need to get out of here, but I don't know where to turn. Talk to a trusted friend, confident advisor, somebody you went to school with, a successful, wise relative, whoever that might be, start asking questions.

Speaker 1: 39:52

It reminds me of how I found my current job and I absolutely love it and I feel like it's what I was meant to do. But it's funny, you know, it takes 10 years. In the military I did air traffic control. I was like, oh, this is okay, but I don't really feel like a passion or longing. And then I moved into contracting cutting contracts on behalf of the government. I'm like, again, it's like it's okay, but I don't really feel that desire.

Speaker 1: 40:15

And I was hanging out in a cubicle and was eavesdropping and maybe I shouldn't have been listening to conversations from somebody else. But someone else was talking about this career field. That was hospital administration over at the clinic, and I'm relatively healthy. I only go to the clinic once a year for an annual physical and even that I don't think they do that as much as they used to. They kind of just check on you and check your answers to a few questions and then you're good to go. And so I heard this person talk about that and she said, hey, would you like to go check it out? And I was like, yeah, that'd be great.

Speaker 1: 40:47

And so I went over and, just as cliche as it can be, I was like midway through the day shadowing that job, and I was like this is the thing I have to do. I have to do this. You have one job you're doing all these things to help people. I love helping people. I pass out of blood and needles so I can't do the front side of the house, but everything on the backside logistics, insurance, pharmacy templates everything on the backside, all the admin stuff. I love making PowerPoints and running spreadsheets and doing all these things. You know a thousand other jobs outside and I had no idea the job even existed. All I had to do was keep my ears open, maybe more than I should have, but it was talking to people and hearing things and then boom, it all falls into place. Seven years now I've been in this side and I love it and there's nothing else I can think of I'd want to do. Um, so it's just crazy. Definitely getting out and talking to people, I think, is super important. So it's just crazy.

Speaker 2: 41:47

Definitely getting out and talking to people, I think, is super important. So we were talking about the inner knowing before and your experience is a clear case of that inner knowing drawing you in and when the opportunity came into your awareness you went for it.

Speaker 1: 42:04

Yeah, it's perfect, because I always feel stagnant, I always feel bored. It's like how my personality has always been and so in this one job we have one job, but you can be all these different things. I could be over systems and run all computers and phones for the hospital over to insurance. Or like now I'm in readiness, so I'm in training for contingency operations, so I'm in a field pulling a mannequin around covered in blood. So like that is way different than anything else that usually happens in the clinics. These opportunities are just crazy Right, and it's kind of funny. You tell people like the things you're doing, like oh, did you get a new job? Like same, same job, just whatever they need us to do at that particular one. So we need to the new clinic or new hospital More interesting stuff.

Speaker 2: 42:47

That's great, Just uh, there's a, there's another piece of neuroscience that that pops up to me when you're talking about eavesdropping on that conversation and maybe you shouldn't have been eavesdropping there's a, there's a mechanism in the brain called the reticular activating system and that is the, and that is the part of your brain that lets you focus on what you think is important and filters out everything. That's not Because when you think about it, we have stimulus going on in our world all the time. You know, right now I've got a light here, a light there. I've got this mic in front of my face. I'm trying to concentrate on you. Stuff's going on in the house on the other side of that door. You know there are two dogs over there and everyone's all here them, but I'm focused on you. That's the reticular activating system that's telling me to concentrate here and shut everything else out. So the way they illustrate this typically is with new parents. So the idea is at night, baby is sleeping, parents are sleeping. If there's a sound out on the street, the father wakes up. Because I got to protect the house, I got to protect the family. Wife sleeps through. The baby makes a noise. The mother is up. Baby's something wrong with the baby. I got to check out the baby. The father sleeps through it. That's the reticular activating system. It's what's important to us at that moment how we structure our minds to respond to stimuli.

Speaker 2: 44:28

Another illustration You're buying a new car. It's time to get rid of the old car You've decided you're looking at, say, it's an Audi. You're looking at that Audi, that little Audi Q3 or Q5, whatever that Audi model is. All of a sudden, you're seeing it everywhere. You didn't notice it last week. Now that you've decided you want one, it's everywhere. Well, that's your reticular activating system, noticing the car that you want to buy and it's letting you see it.

Speaker 2: 45:03

So when you're sitting in your cubicle and you're eavesdropping, quote, unquote this conversation next door. I would say it's your reticular activating system going. I'm interested in that and it's bringing that information to you, Otherwise you might've ignored it, Huh.

Speaker 1: 45:23

That's interesting. Yeah, that's good stuff. I wanted to ask a question. You told a story earlier on one of your clients. Do you have any personal stories that have you know that same type of connection or things like that? Is there anything that you were trying to teach someone else but ended up teaching yourself?

Speaker 2: 45:47

teaching yourself. That's a good question. You know, I'm probably going to think of the story about an hour from now, after the uh, after after we're done with the interview which I'm sure that's in. I'm sorry, I can't kind of pull it out. Uh on on demand here.

Speaker 1: 45:56

It's all good. Uh, so last question I got for you, john what's one piece of advice you'd give to someone on the fence about taking the leap into reinvention?

Speaker 2: 46:06

Two things I would say. The first is that the job that you really want, the job that is an expression of your calling, is already inside you. It's like the statue is already inside the stone. Your job is to pay attention to those voices, indicators, signals inside yourself that are telling you what you really want to do. So that's number one.

Speaker 2: 46:39

But the second thing I would say is that in order to create the future, you have to reconcile the past. We all build up a certain amount of baggage as we evolve and grow and, whether it's a mistake, we made a relationship that we you know, where we burned a bridge or whatever that is, or someone who was mean to us and kind of made us gun shy about doing a particular thing. We bring those unresolved pieces of baggage into every interaction that we get into and that can work against us because there's a certain hesitation that we may bring to bear. And in order to be fully present, fully confident and fully open to the opportunities that are out there for us, we have to resolve, reconcile, forgive and come to terms with and come to acceptance for all of the past slights and issues that might be standing in our way for the future.

Speaker 1: 47:44

Sounds clear out that baggage. Well, John, thank you for coming on the show.

Speaker 2: 47:48

It's been great, I really appreciate it, absolutely so.

Speaker 1: 47:53

I encourage everyone to join the conversation. Connect with us on Instagram, facebook, tiktok, youtube. I need to catch up on YouTube Buzzsprout. The audio will come out every other Wednesday. Share your questions, insight or feedback. We're building a community and your voice matters. I love you all. See ya, thank you.