Carrots on Tacos, Beer on ATVs, and Other “Normal” Things w/ Chris Harmer

We explore how to break generational patterns, lead with grace and accountability, and raise humans who choose kindness over status. Chris shares vulnerable stories from command and home that show why curiosity, clarity, and community change lives.

• breaking generational chains through awareness and new norms
• journaling, mindfulness, and bookending the day for accountability
• curiosity before judgment as a leadership default
• clear is kind: grace paired with standards
• when grace backfires and what to learn
• belief and safety unlocking surprising performance
• modeling values at home to raise kind humans
• redefining success beyond titles and income
• stepping into the arena and doing the next right thing

If you found value in this, please let me know on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, or YouTube. If you could please drop a review, bring it up to the top, you know, that algorithm, and we'll see you next time. I love you all. See ya.

https://mindforcepodcast.buzzsprout.com

Chapters

• 0:50 Opening, Setup, and Guest Intro
• 1:43 Defining the Hardest Problem: Parenting
• 3:47 Chris’s Background and Generational Baggage
• 7:24 Self-Reflection, Bookending, and Mindfulness
• 12:12 Curiosity over Judgment in Leadership
• 16:59 Generational Norms and Hidden Coping Patterns
• 22:31 Victim Mindset vs. Community and Grit
• 26:23 Leading with Grace under Pressure
• 31:26 When Grace Backfires—and When It Blossoms
• 37:14 Raising Kinder Humans, Not Perfect Ones
• 42:02 Entitlement, Gratitude, and Modeling Values
• 47:01 The Mindset Shift: Step into the Arena
• 49:50 Connect with Chris and Closing CTA

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:23

Hi, welcome to another episode of Mind Force. I'm Nate Shear, and together we'll explore the mindsets and ideas that shape our lives. Today we'll be talking about breaking generational chains, leading with grace and compassion, and raising a generation of great humans. I've been out for about two and a half weeks doing all those fun military things. I'm trying to remember how all this goes, trying to get the rust off. So we'll work our way through this. We had this episode keyed up. We were jiving and griving, and it was going amazing, which that's totally not a word, but we had a little bit of issue with internet and uh tornado touching down. And so we're back at it, and uh, we're gonna get back up to speed and and get into the rhythm that we were before. So thank you for coming out. Let's start with a quick introduction. Who are you? What moves you right now, and what brought you to this conversation?

SPEAKER_00: 1:16

Hey, Nate. Thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate it. And so my name's Chris Harmer. I am a uh Air Force uh or Medical Service Corps officer. More importantly, I'm a father. And what kind of brings me to to this conversation? One is I I really appreciate your kind of your approach on what you evaluate and what you look at and kind of explore in human behaviors and dealing with uh what I would say is an ever more complex world, right? And what we're trying to kind of navigate as humans and really to help each other in that human condition that we that we all find ourselves in, right? Is I I said more importantly, I'm a father. I always say the my job doesn't keep me up at night, right? It's it's being a parent that keeps me up at night, or some interaction with another human maybe that kept me up at night. So that's really what brings me here today is just uh an interest in kind of what your program is about and sharing experiences. So I thank you for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01: 2:10

Absolutely. Yeah, I had a recent episode on complex problems, and he had asked me what I think is the most complex problem. I was like, raising kids. Every kid's different, the boy is different than the girl, the first is different than the second, and you don't get a lot of feedback. And so it's something that I feel like is probably the most complex. Normally you have sprints or whatever, you know, we want to talk about through project management. You get feedback, you adjust course, you make things better. Kids, like you might not make that, they might not make that same mistake for, you know, years or maybe never again. And so you never really get the feedback along the way. So I'm glad that you're here. Thanks for coming out. It's awesome to have you. And I'm glad that you mentioned, you know, the fatherhood and things like that. I think, you know, on a lot of different of my episodes, we've talked about success. And I think there's many ways to define that. And it's good that, you know, you're grounded, you know, and you know, resort back to, you know, whatever the core and the function of that is, which is really, you know, being a good parent. And so we'll start with a few warm-up questions. Uh, what inspired you, your passion for breaking generational cycles and leading with grace?

SPEAKER_00: 3:20

Yeah, so I uh I come from a very rough background, right? I would say very abusive environment, lots of addictions, things like that. And just kind of grew up with what my norm was, was to me at the time a norm, right? Like there was nothing abnormal about that. Joining the military brought me into an environment with many different types of people. And again, what I believed was a normal behavior became readily apparent that it was certain things weren't normal, right? That that wasn't what was expected. And so as I went on and had my own children and just kind of worked out the type of father I wanted to be, the type of husband I wanted to be, the type of leader I wanted to be in the Air Force, I realized that there was some some baggage that I brought into that, right? Some things that I carried. And as I looked back, it wasn't just that I carried it, it was that for generations it had been carried in my family. And so those certain types of behavior, the reliance on poor coping mechanisms, addiction, blame of others versus responsibility, just many different things that were generational in nature started to kind of bubble to the surface. So my wife and I both started to really focus on how we could break those generational chains with our own children. Um and what I found was it's not just with my own children. I I end up taking that into my job as a commander currently, and even before that and helping others, right? Everyone that walks in the door, 18, 19 years old, so many have the same type of challenges that I had. And so it became just kind of a passion of mine, something that I think I can not only help within my own family, but something that I can take to others.

SPEAKER_01: 4:57

It's something I find so interesting too, because I think you hit it the nail on the head is you don't know until you you don't know. And so one story, you know, I'll poke fun at my mom. She's actually here. We picked her up a couple days ago. But she, her whole life, yeah, I'm like, oh, should I do this? But I always find it funny. She grew up with carrots on her tacos, which is super weird. Um so she thought that was normal, that's what they did. And then she went over to a friend's house, and so they're having taco Tuesday. Like, oh, can you pass the carrots? What are you talking about? But up until that point, like, if that's what you've done and that's what you've experienced, even though it's kind of, you know, comical and kind of funny, you know, not as much as like the trauma and things like that, but just that good example of like it's normal. And so, you know, until you go to have someone pass you the carrots, then it seems weird. Then you start to kind of self-reflect and realize maybe that's not as normal as I thought. Um, the next question I have for you, can you share a defining moment that shaped your approach to leadership?

SPEAKER_00: 5:58

Yeah, so I would say actually my own personal kind of struggles as I faced in my early 30s significant challenges in my personal life. It really shaped and changed my method of leadership, my approach to leading people. I think in my younger years, I was probably far more maybe cynical and potentially even overly driven on self, I guess is probably the best way to put it, right? Like personal success was the most important thing. I mean, that goes back to generational belief, right? I mean, kind of a belief and centering around my personal progress and not necessarily focusing on those around me, building like great teams and the fulfillment that comes from that. So, really, my own personal struggles forced me to humble myself significantly and be very introspective in how I led. So, kind of personal life and professional life merging together kind of early in my fees, I um I realized that I was just headed in the wrong direction. Everything in my career was blossoming and awesome, and everything in my home life was not going great, right? Realizing I wasn't the father I wanted to be for my kids, and I wasn't the person I wanted to be, the husband I wanted to be, really started to bubble up. And I started to realize that I was developing the exact same things, you know, the same poor coping mechanisms with alcoholism and things like that that uh those around or that my family had struggled with over the years. So literally repeating the same things. As I went through that experience, I realized that my professional experience, my leadership journey was very stunted by my own desire to better myself, if that makes sense. It wasn't about bettering myself while taking care of others. It was about just in the rat race, doing the best that I possibly could in the world around me. And that was very unfulfilling, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01: 7:48

Yeah, I think it's one of those things we don't do a good job and not really like in the military. I think as a whole, as Americans or maybe humans, I don't know, maybe other countries do it better. But self-reflection, I feel like our drive is faster, better, stronger, do it yesterday, like hurry up, more focused on, you know, you can Google any answer in a second, you can get fast food through drive-through. Like we've lost the ability to slow down and really self-reflect. It's not really prevalent anywhere, which is kind of unfortunate because I think that's how you really grow. We have personality tests and these different things we do, but I don't know if we ever like make anyone like stop and really slow down. I guess in some of the things, right? I guess there are times where, you know, different PMEs, professional military education, maybe there is, but no. What what are your thoughts on that? Is there enough self-reflection?

SPEAKER_00: 8:43

No, I would say there definitely is not. And part of that is we don't build it into our own lives and routines, right? So I developed a habit years ago that has probably been the most beneficial thing. And it came for for me from therapy, but it's bookending my day, right? So I start my day out with reflection and mindfulness and end my day with journaling, reflection, and mindfulness. So it's kind of that idea of ultimate accountability. I start my day with reflecting on, you know, how my intent of how I want to live in that day, and then finish the day with, did I do what I intended to do? Because the reality is we as humans are oftentimes very selfish individuals. And we have very we all have triggers, things that bother us, right? So let's say that you struggle with inadequacy in some way of who you are. Maybe it's not in everything, but it's just something. And during a day, someone pokes at that thing in something they say in an email, something they say in a meeting, what whatever that may be. And even your children can do it. They poke at that inadequacy, and then you respond in a certain way. Your response is gonna be natural if you never reflect on that response and you never try to change that behavior. You're just gonna default to um what is typically a extreme or a unhealthy type of response to something that that kind of triggers you or a certain behavior. So I have found that I've identified many of those in my own life as I reflect. The other thing I would say is a lot of it's an uncomfortable thing. It is really uncomfortable to truly own your own inadequacies, your own shortcomings in life, right? And to do those without negatively impacting your own kind of mental health can be a challenging balance. But I think it leads to someone who is truly giving their all.

SPEAKER_01: 10:31

Yeah, one of the things that reminds me, I had to Google it real quick, see if I could pull it up, because I love the way Benjamin Franklin had his journal. He started every day and it says, What good shall I do today? And that was the beginning of every day. And then he ended every day by saying, What good have I done today? So how have I helped? How have I improved something? And that was the start every single page of this journal that he has hourly blocks on. He could make notes and things like that, but he intentionally stopped and said, What good, you know, should I look forward to doing, to getting after, and then make sure that he was closing out the day, also doing that. It reminds me of I had a first sergeant, which is like an HR person in the military, and he had an awesome way of closing out his week. He would print off his calendar and then he would stop and then see what he got done that week and why he didn't get things done. I think that was the most important part because we all get caught up with stuff. We get too busy, we have too many plates spinning, there's too much going on. But the the pause and reflection of why. Do I need to elevate this? Am I stuck with this? Do I need to hand this off to someone? Maybe this task is no longer important. Maybe I need to cross it off. Because I think we do, a lot of us do calendar review or some form of calendar preparation at the beginning of the week, which is awesome. I don't see as much on Friday, like, yeah, I'm I'm over it, I'm overwhelmed. I need to get out of here. Let's close out Friday. But it's like that pause is a force multiplier when you figure out where everything needed to go. And I think from a mental health standpoint as well, like being able to sleep better, things that are closed that are at a resolution. I think a lot of us struggle with sleeping and things like that because there's things that are still ongoing. But he's able to, you know, delegate, push, delete, whatever in that little, I'm sure, you know, 20, 30 minutes shouldn't take that long to close out the week, print off the calendar for the next week, and get ready. So both of those, I try to throw those out as tips, uh, like you had said, journaling and bookending, either Benjamin Franklin with some type of quote to begin or end, or some type of reflection to close out your week. Well, we before we get into your three main pillars, I wanted to see if you had a question for me.

SPEAKER_00: 12:43

Do. Um, so you know, initially I go to, hey, what started this? And then I thought, I bet you everyone has asked you uh what made you start this. So what it what I really kind of thought through, you specifically is I noticed that you take a very purposeful approach to how you interact with other humans. And what I mean by that is it seems to be a very, a very positive way of interacting with others. So I'm I'm interested to hear if that is something that you have developed over time in the way that you, whether it's a smile, whether it's uh, I remember at one point I heckled you over a jar of salsa or something that you were handing out to folks, but you seem to really care about others, right? Is that something that has always naturally been there for you or something that has developed?

SPEAKER_01: 13:27

I think both. I hate to go with both answers, but I've always been upbeat, happy go lucky, always been the happy person. Uh, I have a lot of role models and relatives that have kind of instilled that in me. But I think, I don't know if you've seen some of the posts I've written on and LinkedIn and maybe on Facebook as well, but I think some of that has come along the way as well. So it was there and it was like a seed, and then it was planted and then blossomed more and more because I've had people pour out into me to help me get into the medical service corps to find this job that I I love and can't imagine doing anything else. I got behind on my timeline, some things happened, some people, you know, helped me out, made some phone calls. And so I've seen across the board uh, you know, I had a Red Cross notification when my dad was passing away. I have to fly all the way around the world from Guam to get there before his passing, to have that closure. You know, it's still painful, it's still not fun, but you know, at least I got that aspect of closure to be able to get there in time. And, you know, these different events, people stepped in, watched my house, watched my dogs, people made phone calls for me. And so I see it as almost like a responsibility or an ownership, basically, and hopefully not in like that negative way, but people have always been there for me. And so I feel like I owe it at this point to pour out and continue to help people and take care of people. It just kind of feels like a non-negotiable. People have always done there and been there. So I'm gonna hold the door open, I'm gonna smile. I've been, you know, I've had to respond to DUIs, domestic violence, pulling people out of situations. And it's one of those things that comes back to my initial feedback, and hopefully people can attest to this. But I say, I want to be there on your best day, but I also want to be there on your worst day. I would rather be there on your worst day than you not have anyone. So do I want you to have your worst day? No, absolutely not. I want you to have awesome days all the time, if that's possible. But as we know, that's not possible. So I will be there. I'll report it in the blues, we'll go to court or whatever it may be. I would rather you have someone than not have anyone at all. So I think that's kind of where it is. I've always kind of been that way, but there's just been people along the way that have been there. And so that responsibility and ownership where I don't think we have to be best friends, and I think that's one thing that kind of gets lost in the military sometimes like, oh, I don't like the same things they do. I don't want to be, you know, drinking buddies with them or whatever. I'm not saying that. I'm saying you will be there when the time is called. Like you should be able to have someone else pick your kid up from daycare because you're running behind, or you know, our life is too difficult with deployments, TDYs, and things going on to not be there for each other. We do not live normal lives. We do not have normal jobs. You know, I think some people want it to be 7:30 to 430, but unfortunately that's not how it is. And so, yeah, we just got to be there for each other. So I'm not saying you have, you know, perfectly perfect friendships, but being there for each other, I think that's like just non-negotiable and completely required. That was way longer than you wanted.

SPEAKER_00: 16:26

No, I greatly appreciated it. You know, it kind of triggered some of my own thoughts on the the idea of, right, I can meet you and where you're at no matter what, right? So I've had instances where I've had to issue article things or some significant military punishment, and that doesn't mean that I then dismiss that person, right? It's okay, how do I how do I hold you accountable to a standard, but then meet you where you are on your worst day? So I I I like the way you put it, and I think it is important to say, hey, you're still a human. Like maybe you're a human that made a terrible decision, but your well-being is important to me. And if I'm gonna talk about your development or you who you are, I'm gonna meet you where you're at, wherever that may be. It may be completely distraught and making terrible decisions in life, but I'm gonna climb down in that hole with you and we're gonna climb out together, right? We're not, I'm not gonna pour water on you and tell you, hey, find a way out, right? I think that's the difference and kind of the approach that I notice.

SPEAKER_01: 17:22

Yeah, and I think in the last episode that we recorded or attempted to record, we talked about Brene Brown, and that's a huge one. You got the sympathy versus empathy. You got sympathy saying, oh, poor you, but empathy being able to sit, sit in the space, and you know, maybe not say anything at all. I think that's something an another thing that we get misconstrued sometimes, like, oh, I don't know what to say, I don't know what the right thing. Sometimes it's nothing. Like when we say sit in the space, I think we literally mean sit and in the space, that's that's difficult at the time. Well, your first uh main pillar is breaking generational curses or chains. What are the most common generational patterns that hold people back?

SPEAKER_00: 18:06

So I guess I would start with a selfish approach, I think is one thing that I see consistently in, and it may not even be taught a selfish approach. So this is why it's something that a lot of people carry and can go through tons of training, tons of, you know, involvement with others and not really ever recognize it. The maybe they grew up in an environment that was a very much about you type environment, right? It's not about the world around me, it's not about anyone else, it is about you. And sometimes we get lost when we talk about ultimate accountability for ourselves and our own actions. We lose sight of the fact that there are legitimate struggles and challenges that others go through that one, are not brought on themselves. And even if they are brought on themselves, it's something that they human condition is a thing that we all share. So it's something that they can use help through. So I would say the first one I see consistently is just kind of a selfish approach. The second one I would say is unhealthy coping mechanisms is an incredibly common generational chain, right? So we we know about addictions. I think those are very common ones. Um and they can go anywhere from alcohol, drugs, food. Um, I've even seen exercise, right? Like an excessive, uh, we don't we don't think about that as a uh unhealthy coping mechanism, but when you start breaking things and harming yourself, it can become an unhealthy coping mechanism. Um so I I think the the natural, the things that we see a lot, we think of that when we think of generational chains. And then then I would say, you know, it goes, it runs the spectrum, right? An example that I always like to give is in the military, we send people through basic military training and we assume that when they get to our unit afterwards, that they understand that our core values are their core values and that what we're about is what they're about. What we don't realize is that they spent the last 18 to 20 years, however long they were before the military, in a completely different environment with things that were acceptable in that environment, with behaviors that were normal in that environment. And so we unfortunately oftentimes respond to a young airman who does something dumb. I mean, so I'll give you an example that I use from my where I'm from. And we respond to it in a, you know, in a terrible way, like how could you do this? This is a we've told you what the standard is, and yet you violate it. And the example I like to use is I come from Kentucky, kind of the the woods of Kentucky. It's so growing up, it is very, very common for my family to drive around in an ATV with a cooler of beer in the back. And that could be a beverage in the cup holder open, driving that ATV. These same people would never dream of operating their car under the influence. Never. They they absolutely are adamantly opposed to it, think it's just an unbelievable thing. They will wave at the cop going down the country road with their cooler of beer in the back and an open container. So you tell them, if they came through the military training that you don't drink and drive, then they would absolutely agree with you. You don't drink and drive. What they would never do is think, well, I shouldn't drink while driving my ATV. And I've seen instances where airmen have gotten in trouble for drinking and driving an ATV or some type of motor vehicle, right? And many of us might write that off as, hey, that's common sense, man. Come on, like, don't do that. But the truth is it's not to certain people. And so that's not necessarily this deep and, you know, integrated generational change, but it's a great real world example of how someone can carry something forward that is their norm.

SPEAKER_01: 21:37

Yeah, I think it's back to the carrots on the tacos. I mean, if if it's just something that you're used to and you've done it for 20 years or 18 years straight, that's completely ingrained at that point. I don't think you know the difference or, you know, and you can't really fault them too much. One thing I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on, this is something I get hung up on, is I just saw something where they were talking about the, you know, top 10% of people, the the Bill Gates, the Bezos, all these different people have, you know, challenging backgrounds. And it goes to the necessity drives innovation. Like if you have to survive the survival mechanism, you're gonna do great things potentially. And so, where is the line, or how do you see the difference between like the victim mindset and like I've had the the bad cards drawn to me and I'm over it, so I'm just gonna spiral, or like I'm gonna use this for a foot up. Like, how you know, what advice do you have to someone that's on the edge or has that bad background? Like, how do you get out? Or, you know, what are your thoughts on victim mindset versus like using it as a foothold?

SPEAKER_00: 22:44

Man, that's a tough question. That's uh one that I absolutely have struggled with. So I have there are four, I have three other siblings, right? And myself, both of my parents died of drug overdoses. My other three siblings have all succumbed to addiction and continuously live a life of whether it's in and out of jail or dealing with some significant type of just not a great life, right? Like definitely dealing with drama, things like that. And I went a different direction, right? And while I may have had my own struggles, nowhere's as significant as like the choices that they made. And that's not just because I'm innately a better human or like what I really think it came down to was I had some really great external influences in my life. I made a decision to join the military, which made a world of difference in surrounding me with great people. So, you know, I did things very early on that I knew I didn't want the environment that I grew up in. So I started working really hard at a really young age. I started doing certain things. And as I look back at those, none of those I'd love to take credit for it all and say, I'm just, man, I'm awesome. But the the truth is it was there were external influences in my life, the person who said something to me that clicked, the person who did something for me that was unbelievably kind, that then made me feel what you were talking about earlier. Like I felt this underlying need to repay it to the world. I think the difference in those things is genuinely the communities around us. And do we step in? My wife oftentimes talks about how when you're raising kids, it's not a single stroke of the painting, it's the entire painting. So, you know, she uses the example of a, you know, a field of grass. And when a painter paints a field of grass, it's many, many strokes to give you that image. But when, and sometimes with our children, we're saying something for the hundredth time and we're like, man, are they ever gonna get this? But it's just another stroke on the canvas. And your goal is that ultimately you will have a complete picture. And that child that you release into the world is a great human because you put the time because you did, because you put that stroke on the canvas. And so to me, that that's why I love intertwining my personal kind of what we're talking about here with my leadership style or with other parts, because to me it does it all enter, it is all included in the same thing. It's all about just trying to be a part of a community, be a part of an environment that is positive and uplifting for others. Because if folks would not have done that for me, I never would have been in the place I'm in today. I I don't know that I ever would have taken accountability. And even after joining the military, going to school, commissioning, I've had some great leaders that had some hard conversations with me. Really goes back to challenge to uh how I was behaving and how I was dealing with things in my life, how I was thinking through things. The bottom line is it's not done alone. So the difference maker, I think, is it's not just grit. I think some of us have certain qualities, but it's beyond grit. It's someone who's willing to pour into those around them.

SPEAKER_01: 25:43

Yeah, and I think you just never know. I know I've mentioned it on the show quite a few times, so I hate to beat a dead horse, but I always think of WD-40. It was the 40th recipe of that. And if they stop at 38 or 39, we never know they exist, you know, and now it's literally in every household, probably in the world, like being in the UK, being in Japan, doesn't really matter. I don't think where I've lived, I'm pretty sure I could buy that anywhere. You know, the perfect lubricant and, you know, deruster and things like that. So it's just interesting. Like they could have easily stopped, like, hey, we made it through 20, it just sucks, we're gonna quit. But the 40th one, it all lined up, it was perfect, and you know, I think that's the the the picture of the painting. It could be, you know, the 40th stroke or the 400th stroke. But moving on to your next pillar, it's leading with grace and compassion. What does it mean to you to lead with grace in a world that often prioritizes power and dominance?

SPEAKER_00: 26:42

So that I would say first, it's one that's closely intertwined with the kind of the first question. Um I would say first it is it's gotta be more about others than yourself. It absolutely has to be you have to set aside the desire um to look a certain way or to um to be perceived in a certain way, uh, or to um impress your leadership in certain things, right? In the environment that I'm in currently, in a command environment, you have you know 17 commanders on the space, and we do a status of discipline review and other things, and they're constantly looking at like how do we do things collectively for good order and discipline. I would say you always start with a curious attitude and meeting someone genuinely where they're at, right? All too often we put a barrier up between others and or us and other humans as we progress and rank. And I've even heard people say, hey, you need to purposefully do that. You need to make sure you keep this barrier. And for certain things, there's there's a requirement there and a rationale for it. But at the end of the day, in order to lead with grace and compassion, you have to first uh get to where that person is at. Um and so I oftentimes think of for me, spirituality is an important part of who I am. So I think of Jesus and his approach to meeting people in the absolute worst of cases. Um, you know, it he he absolutely stood where they stood and did what they did, lived where they lived. And so those that believe in him believe in this like perfect life that he lived in an imperfect world. And I think in order to meet people with grace and compassion, we have to first try to seek to understand who they are, what they're going through. And then I think the second thing is we have to absolutely remove judgment and challenge it when it comes into our mind because it will come into our mind. We absolutely have one of the things that is I know is a very, very sensitive topic for me is any type of discrimination or sexual harassment or sexual abuse. It is really, really difficult for me to have someone sit in front of me and talk to them like any other human if I'm dealing with those types of behaviors. And so, how in the world do I find myself in a place of compassion for something that I can't fathom? So I have to really challenge myself and put myself in a headspace well before that engagement that is just more curious than judgmental.

SPEAKER_01: 29:05

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, Jesus was definitely there, washing feet, you know, beside tax collectors, lawyers, prostitutes, all sorts of things. And I think that's a great reminder. I'm glad you bring that up because I think sometimes, you know, we get into religion and things like that, people like, oh, they're all perfect, they're all squared away. That's why they get like we go because we need help like everyone else. We do not have it all figured out. We're just trying to help each other, and you know, so not high and mighty, not above others by any means. We should be meeting people where they are, absolutely. So I'd love to hear stories if you can, hopefully without you know giving out too much information, not the point, but just from a learning standpoint. When is a time that, you know, grace has really paid off and you've seen like dividends, and then maybe a time Grace backfired, and what did you learn on that side as well?

SPEAKER_00: 29:56

Well, yeah. No, I've got plenty of those. And I honestly, Nate, I would say you have to approach uh that that style of leadership, acknowledging that there are going to be plenty of occasions where you give grace and it backfires or slaps you in the face. There are gonna be plenty of instances and going back to kind of think of how G how it slapped Jesus in the face, right? Like he gave it constantly. So it's gonna happen. Like at the end of the day, you are going to give grace and it's gonna backfire on you. Maybe that wasn't the moment for that person, right? Like maybe it just didn't click. Um, what I always say is that a um, what is it? Uh a uh trying to remember the term, but basically a an old penny shows up twice everywhere. So if somebody's gonna do something that is that is foolish or truly unethical, terrible type behavior, just kind of what I'm talking about here, they're they're probably gonna do it again if they're not learning and changing. And so you don't have to worry about like dropping the hammer the first time you see some type of behavior. So if you look at things in that way, it's fairly easy to approach it with grace and then fairly easy to approach it with trying to help. So I'll start with an example um of where it backfired on me, and then I'll give an example where I think it had a very positive and it was exactly the way I wanted things to work out, right? So as far as backfired on me, I had an individual who was going through a very, very challenging time. So a divorce, um, they were drinking heavily, they were kind of making some poor, overarching decisions, showing up to work late, not not completing their work, giving their spouse a really hard time. And they were just an emotional wreck, is the best way to put it. They were really, really struggling with life. And so that person had done some things that that were really um things that we could have gone one of two directions on. We could have gone really heavy-footed or heavy-handed um and derailed their career, or we could have gone in more of a positive direction. And so I chose to try to give grace, go in a positive direction, and continue to try to guide this person through what was a very difficult time. And I did this with full knowledge that they had shown a repetitive, it wasn't a very long period of repetitive poor behavior, but it was a period of repetitive poor behavior. I also looked at it and realized they hadn't really had that early interaction accountability with leadership, some things that we have to hold ourselves accountable to, right? Did we do what we should have done as leaders in that case? And when I say we, I mean the entire organization. I don't mean just individually, but did the organization uphold their their end of the bargain? It's easy to default and say they should have done better, they should have known better. But taking that accountability. So in that situation collectively, I felt one, we had not done what we needed to do for that person, and two, that that person was living through an unbelievably difficult time. And so you showing grace while simultaneously having very hard conversations. You talked about Brene Brown. I'm a big fan of her term, clear as kind. Um, so gave them very clear expectations on hey, what you are doing is unacceptable. The way you are behaving, the way you are responding is unacceptable. You get to make choices from this day moving forward on how this moves for you. And unfortunately, that person decided to break into their spouse's home, assault their spouse, and uh, that was hard for me, very, very hard for me. Because I I tell you, like I have a hard time with those types of things specifically. And so I felt I had to really reflect on did I miss something? Did I allow that behavior? Should I have put a no-contact order in place? Should I have done something more in that moment to prevent that that from happening? That person ended up, they're out of the military, they're not not a part of that family's life anymore. But it was a gut-wrenching sense of I showed grace and it really came back to bind me. Uh, when I reflect on that situation, that moment as a leader, one, I take pure accountability for my decisions and own that I decided what I decided based on the facts that I had. Two, that I chose grace. Um, and that that human deserves grace no matter what. Now, they continue to make poor decisions, and I can't own their continued decisions, but what I can do is always learn from it. And I don't know that I would have changed the way I approach the situation. That's easy to say, hey, I would uh I would have gone back and done things different now that I know the other side. But that's a great example of something that was near to me. The the action itself was almost offensive to me. You know, I've got three daughters and their well-being is so incredibly important to me that it took me a little while to kind of live through that one and then not change, believe enough that the approach was worthy regardless of the outcome. So that was the, I guess I would say the losing, the losing battle. I'll give you one that's uh more of a positive. So when I uh when I first got to my current command position, there was an airman who was really just struggling, just not not thriving in their work section, not thriving in their job. And they they had really just continuously not only not done well in the job, they were looking for every reason they could to not be there, to bring others down, to just not be a good teammate. And so when I got there, the intent was to not allow this person to re-enlist and continue with the military. What you don't need a ton, it's not like a disciplinary thing. You don't have to have a a ton of stuff. I mean, it's a commander's decision, do you allow them to or not? And being a part of the military seemed to be oddly important to this person for how they treated the opportunity. Because they really did not seem like they wanted to be in the military, and yet they it was very important to them. So when I sat down with them and I went back to that being curious about the person, what I started to learn was that one, they came from a very, very disruptive background. They had never had safety and security in their life whatsoever. So go back to Maslow's kind of hierarchy of needs. It was never there. And at a point in the unit, their direct leadership had led them to believe or had basically kind of written them off as a someone who could not be trusted, someone who was, and maybe this wasn't intentional. I don't think it was malicious. I think it was they had seen it as this person is not not giving their all. And so it was like this spiral of the airmen was not believing in themselves. They didn't believe that their leadership was there for them. They didn't feel safe, secure, taken care of in their environment. And so I absolutely could have gone with what I knew and what the leadership initially kind of wanted, which was not not allowing this airman to reenlist. Instead, what I what I did after a lot of reflection and a lot of discussion was with the airmen was I brought the airmen back in. First, I talked to the leadership and I said, here's what I'm gonna tell the airmen. I'm gonna tell them that I want them out of the military. However, that you, as their leaders, care enough about them that you want, you believe in them. And I want to see what what will change here. I said, I get that this is a risk, but I believe that one, we have not, it goes back to we haven't done our due diligence with this airman. And two, I I think that if we do the right things by this person and we show that we believe in them, that they will step up to the plate. And I wasn't sure how that was going to play out. It was very early in my command. I was very hopeful. It almost brought me to tears not too long ago when I signed that airman's decoration as they were leaving uh this organization. That airman would never have received a decoration, much less any other type of kudos. Over the next six months, she not only became part of the team, but she led the team in multiple things that were unbelievably positive. Every time I saw her, she was growing, and her own leadership was just shocked by this kind of change. And at first they were like, well, maybe she's just changing because there's still time to not sign this paperwork and she's just trying to get to the thing that she wants. That absolutely was not it. What it came down to was she needed someone to believe in her and she needed an environment where she felt safe. And when she felt safe and she felt believed in, she started to thrive like you wouldn't believe. So it's the story like that that that forces me to continue to lead with compassion and grace.

SPEAKER_01: 37:50

That's uh that's a good one. I'm glad you did it in that order, ended on the high note. That is that is good stuff. Your last pillar is raising a generation of great humans. So the first question is what are the most important values to instill in the next generation? And it reminds me there's a personality test. I wish I could remember which one it is, but it always drives me nuts because I never know the answer to the question. So maybe I'll pose it to you to see what your thoughts are. Do you want your kids to be smart or kind?

SPEAKER_00: 38:23

Uh so I I want my kids to be kind. When I uh when I look at uh raising a generation of great humans, that's absolutely what it's about. And it's hard right now, man. I am not I am not the parent that's gonna throw stones at my kid and say, hey, you're uh you're really not doing well at anything. I see the kids right now as they are facing such unbelievable scrutiny and difficulty in what they're facing. And that's just not easy. And so the I say kind because I think that caring for others is a much more important thing in this world than being highly intelligent and being incredibly successful. And honestly, it's far more fulfilling than any of those other things.

SPEAKER_01: 39:08

Yeah, that makes sense. Uh, we had touched on this on the last one, but I got to bring it back up because I'm still curious uh on your thoughts and maybe to push this out to the listeners. Like we want to raise the bar and we want to take care of our kids, you know. The whole I feel like the re-reoccurring thing, a repeating thing is like, you know, have a better life than we had. And so I grew up in, you know, Section 8, and it was me and my mom against the world, and I live with my grandparents for quite a bit of time and hand-me-downs, and I, you know, rarely got new clothes and things like that. And so now we're able to provide iPads and, you know, provide these things to them, which is awesome. But where is the line between like, you know, raising them better and providing that better life without raising brats?

SPEAKER_00: 39:54

Yeah, it's a great question because I've got some kids right now. Actually, yesterday we were my wife and I were out for two hours and received seven phone calls. Um, and I was like, I'm not sure these kids try to resolve a problem before they call us. You know, it's like, hey, we're out of peanut butter. Like, I feel like you could probably deal with that on your own in life, right? So some of it it goes back to give yourself some grace, right? Like, this is our first time doing it. We joke with our oldest consistently that, like, hey, you were our training child. Like, sorry, you you dealt with things far more difficult far more difficult difficultly than your siblings did. Like, things got easier, I think, for the siblings than they probably did for the oldest child. Um, and we've learned as parents time and time again. I'll give you an example. Like, my my oldest got her a phone at, I don't know, nine years old. My 12-year-old just got her phone, right? So it's slowing. And my poor son, I tell consistently he'll get one when he's 18. And so, like, you you make these adjustments as you as you go through parenting and you're just trying to do the best you can. And we have seen that like because I grew up with next to nothing similar to what you're talking about, I want to give my children everything. And so I've learned the importance of forcing them to work for things. But I think what it really I think oftentimes we get lost on a lot of the smaller things and we forget that what the most important thing is, is that they're watching us. So all of those other things are secondary to the fact that they are watching how we live our lives. So, yes, I think children will go through periods of lack of gratitude. At one point, I showed my children the world pay scales. This is ridiculous, right? Like, my children do not care about statistics whatsoever. Um, and they were very young, and I found myself like at the kitchen table showing them what the poverty levels were across the world, and like literally trying to draw this picture of you're so blessed in what we are all so blessed in what we have currently, because they were in a kind of a what I would call a Taylor Swift terms, an era of bad decision making, and just they were just not uh not grateful. The reality is though, all of that becomes very secondary to how we behave and how we respond and what they see. And I will tell you, my 20-year-old is now in college and writing papers and reflecting on things, and there's still things that she does, and I'm like, you gotta be kidding me, kid. Um, but what I can absolutely say is she's genuinely a good human. She genuinely cares about others, and she oftentimes reflects on things that she saw her mom and I do. She never really talks about the things. She never really talks about the things that you or I may think are so incredibly important in the moment to parenting. What she talks about is the way that we were there for people and for them. And the I had a good friend and mentor of mine years ago tell me, oh, he's got two daughters that I think the world of. They're just absolutely awesome humans. Neither of them have PhDs, neither of them are focused on being great earners in this world, but they are genuinely incredible human beings. And so I asked him, you know, hey, Jeff, how do you how do you raise such great daughters? Um and he said, you know, the the best advice I can give you is talk when they're ready to talk. Um he said, unfortunately, that's going to be at 10 o'clock at night. And I cannot tell you how true that statement was. I like to go to bed at a very standard time. I I get out of the shower every night, and my bed has, we have three kids at home still, three kids on the bed surrounding us. And like, what are you doing here? Like, why one, they're trying to prevent going to bed themselves. But two, um, they want our attention and they want our time. And so they that's when they bring those difficult life things to you that they're dealing with. Whether it's a friendship that they're challenged with, whether it's a way someone made them feel that day and they're not sure how to respond to it. Dealing with those things is a parent, I will stop the homework and I will stop the activity of making sure they're at soccer on time, because the chances of them being a professional athlete are pretty slim. The chances of them being the next president of the United States or NASA scientist are pretty slim. Doesn't they absolutely can do it and are capable of doing it, but they will do that on their own. We will prepare them for the world and then they will go make their choices. What I won't get another what I won't get another attempt at is making sure that they care about other people and that they care for themselves. And so we focus on those elements and our parenting style. And we are by no means perfect. In fact, I would say we're probably in the bottom 10%. But I think every parent would grade themselves there. So we're we're just like the rest of us.

SPEAKER_01: 44:30

I think it's one of those things where like the gap is just so far it's hard to understand. Because I remember we had one kid, which I won't highlight them, but they were not eating very well. And so we were like, oh, there's kids in Africa that needs food, and they're like, you know, so we pulled up some videos and showed them some videos and they laughed. And I was like, Why are you laughing? They're like, they look so funny because their stomachs and everything. I'm like, that's awful. But it's it's almost like the gap is is so big and they're so far removed, they can't even like get their selves in those shoes quite yet. I mean, they were very young, so obviously they've changed since then. But yeah, absolutely. Another thing I wish we could really do is is define success. I wish we could figure that out as Americans or people as as general, not necessarily just us, but across the board. I brought it up on the show a couple different times, but the money and the cars and the titles, that's not where it's at. And it's hard because you know, telling someone younger, like, oh yeah, yeah, right. You don't know what it's like to not be able to buy and do these things. I'm like, well, one, I do, but two, like, it's just life experience. I guess you just have to live through it. Like the most rewarding, like you talked about the stories of helping someone, that fills you for days, weeks, months. Like some of these things, you get a new title or a new whatever, like, yeah, maybe you feel good for the day or whatnot, but it doesn't like rejuvenate you, doesn't fill you uh the same way. So trying to bring it all together, what's one belief or mindset shift that can change a great impact for future generations?

SPEAKER_00: 46:03

So I would say putting love and compassion for others purposely above anything else. Um and when I say purposely, I mean it, that means that you have to take time to. You talked about the first sergeant at the end of the week going, Hey, I'm gonna review my calendar. How did I apply that in my life? How did I genuinely do it? And what that what it's gonna look like is oftentimes you're gonna fall short and you're gonna be constantly trying harder again and again. So the philosophy that I use in my squadron and I have used for years, and I I jokingly say Brene Brown stole this from me, but it was actually the man in the arena quote. I never even wrote it, but it was not super common, right? Teddy Roosevelt's Man in the arena, people didn't talk about it a ton. Then Brene Brown put it in the front of her book, and I was like, oh, now everybody knows it. That was my secret uh secret quote. She is he talks about this idea of stepping into the arena and doing the hard thing, right? So what I always look for is I I reward that behavior in myself and others. Like I did you step in and do the really hard thing. Not did you succeed at the hard thing, not that did you feel like you perfected the hard thing, but were you willing to step in and do it? And that means you're gonna get knocked down time and time again. But just, hey, it's enough to just show up, man. Sometimes you are having a really crappy day, but you chose to step in there and do the hard thing. Being caring and compassionate is a hard thing. It is not an easy thing. So that that would be the one thing that I would say can not only change generations, but change the world around us in our scope of influence, whatever that may be, is doing the next right thing and stepping into the arena and just being willing to do the hard things.

SPEAKER_01: 47:37

Absolutely. You'll never have all the answers, you'll never have all the information, but sometimes you just got to take the next step. I think that's from frozen to. Where can listeners connect with and learn more about your work?

SPEAKER_00: 47:50

I am not connected in any way, shape, or form to anyone, Nate. I I will I will tell you, I'm on Facebook. I haven't been on there in about four months because I've restricted myself to be a good example to my children, but I am on LinkedIn, same name, Christopher Harmer. Um, and then I I'm always available via email. I love having conversations with other people. I love helping others, genuinely. It's it's what fills me. Um Christopher.t.harmer at gmail.com as my personal email. And I'm always willing to respond to people, to have conversations, um, because honestly, I will learn, I promise, more from an engagement than anyone will ever learn from me. Um those are the methods I'm available. I don't see myself as a uh, you know, great uh I don't know, a great leader in many senses, someone that uh has all the answers, but I'm always willing to step in and talk through things.

SPEAKER_01: 48:43

We are always learning, and that learning goes both directions. Absolutely. Well, thank you for coming out. That's it for today's episode. If you found value in this, please let me know on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, or YouTube. We'd love to hear from you. If you could please drop a review, bring it up to the top, you know, that algorithm, and we'll see you next time. I love you all. See ya.