Jesus Loves You And Your Therapist, Too w/ Pastors Steve Campbell and John Wilson

We explore how faith, science, and community can work together to support mental fitness, and why asking for help is not weakness but wisdom. Two pastors share personal stories of anxiety, sleeplessness, and loss, and offer practical steps for building safe, honest spaces.

• defining mental health as whole-person care across body, mind and spirit
• bridging scripture with therapy and medicine
• moving from stigma to openness in church culture
• family check-ins using RPMs and age-appropriate language
• practical supports: small groups, drop-ins, referrals
• leaders modeling vulnerability and confidentiality
• serving others as a path to stability and meaning
• reframing help-seeking as biblical strength
• final encouragements for anyone struggling in silence
• where to connect with C3 Church and the pastors

If this spoke to you, share it, leave a review, and take care of your soul and your mind

https://mindforcepodcast.buzzsprout.com

Chapters

• 1:17 Welcome And Big Questions
• 2:04 Meet The Pastors
• 4:39 Generational Wins And Misses
• 7:51 Family Practices For Openness
• 11:40 Host’s Story And Purpose
• 13:14 Defining Mental Health Through Faith
• 18:00 Science And Scripture In Harmony
• 23:49 Personal Battles With Anxiety And Loss
• 30:23 How Church Culture Is Changing
• 36:32 Strength In Seeking Help
• 40:58 Theology And Therapy Together
• 45:35 Creating Safe, Judgement-Free Spaces
• 50:13 A Final Word Of Hope
• 52:54 Where To Connect And Closing

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:50

Welcome back to Mind Force, the podcast where we explore life, leadership, and the power of the human spirit. Today we'll be diving into a conversation at the heart of many lives. Where does faith meet mental health? And how have these ideas shifted across generations? We're joined by two pastors, my wonderful pastors, my main pastor, and then also my location pastor, one season, and one uh a little bit newer, each with a unique lens on what it means to care for the mind, body, and spirit in the context of faith. So we're going to start with guest introductions. I'd love for each of you to introduce yourselves. Who are you? What did or how did your journey in ministry begin? And how does mental health mean to you personally?

SPEAKER_01: 1:37

Oh, should I go first? Season, I'm the seasoned one. I love that. It's a really nice way of saying the old guy. So it's true. I have been in ministry, church leadership for nearly 40 years. I mean, 31 years of that based here in Cambridge. It'll be 40 years next year. For my wife and I lead the C3 church. We led a church previously in the World. And I think, you know, on the second part of your question was around mental health and the church. I think it's been an area we have increasingly grown aware of how important it is. I think we neglected it. If I look back 40 years, there was talk of mental health, but not anyway to the level it is today, and not the understanding that we have today. I personally had some very close up, up close experiences with my dad, who had some serious mental health issues. So I was probably a little bit more from an experiential perspective cognizant of it. But um I don't think a lot of church leaders have been historically. So that's me and my little bit of background in mental health.

SPEAKER_02: 2:40

Yeah, and hey, I'm I'm John, John Wilson, and I have the privilege of serving on team at C3 Church with Pastor Stephen Angie. Um I get to do several different things, look after our different locations, but also location past uh in our Barrie St. Edmunds location, which is how I get to spend a bit of time hanging out with Nate and see him on a Sunday, which is always great to see him and his family. And just really passionate about the church. I've been serving with C3 for about eight years in sort of full-time employment, but right through since I was a child, I've been passionate about serving in the church, helping people find hope and life in knowing Jesus. That's a real passion for me. I really feel like mental health or mental well-being is a really important topic. I know that even on a personal level, it's been an area where my mental health's been not always been great, and there's been battles to go through. And so I'm passionate about trying to open up a vulnerability around that and a desire, how can we grow and strengthen in that area and in the church space? Because I think, you know, God wants to bring healing to us, sort of body, soul, spirit, mind. And, you know, we want to help people sort of grow and flourish in those areas and open up those conversations. So I think it's a great and important topic for us to talk about.

SPEAKER_00: 4:01

Awesome. Thank you both for coming. At this point, I normally ask where everyone is calling from, because I love to see where everyone is calling from, but obviously you guys are both calling from the United Kingdom. So we're about two, two and a half hours uh north northeast of London. So thank you both for calling in. The first question for the warm-up is what's one thing your generation tends to get right when it comes to mental or spiritual wellness, and one thing it often misses.

SPEAKER_01: 4:30

I'll let John go first. Go for it, John.

SPEAKER_02: 4:32

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question. I think one of the things that kind of Steve uh alluded to a little while ago is I think one of the positive things maybe about my generation, but even, you know, I'm a millennial, but even as I see with the next generation with Gen Z coming through is a real openness to talk about their mental well-being. And I think that's a really positive thing. Um, I think one of the things that hasn't always been good has been this sort of a suppressing of the topic, and uh that can lead to sort of isolation and things in isolation always get get worse and spiral. Um so I think a willingness for people to talk about, hey, this is what's going on in my life right now, and this is how I'm addressing it. Maybe it's through, you know, therapy, or maybe it's through, you know, this this counselling or or whatever's going on. I think that's one of the things that is is kind of going better as generations are coming on, and probably even more so I see in Gen Z going forward that willingness to be open and and chat about honestly about what's going on in their life.

SPEAKER_01: 5:43

Yeah, that's an interesting question generationally, because I think John said it well, there are definitely differences. I think what my generation, and I'm gonna speak to this from the church world and what I observed in the church world. I think in the church world historically regarding mental health, certainly in the in the sphere of context I was brought in, we believed in the power of prayer. And so prayer was often the first port of call, which isn't a bad thing. I'm not sure it should be the only port of call, but it was often the first port of call that people went to when mental health issues arose within the church. So I'm talking my sphere. I think the negative from the past was the opposite of what John said. In the generation millennials or or Gen Z might be very willing to talk about mental health. My generation, and definitely the generation before, with my dad that I mentioned earlier, hardly ever spoke about it. And there was a shame about speaking about it, and I think that shame was wrong, and it stopped people expressing their feelings. Now it's gradually, I say I've been in this 40 years, it's gradually got better, I think, in every decade, and we're probably at the best we've ever been by way of people being willing to talk about it. But in the past, people kept stumb about it, so suffered in silence or suffered behind closed doors, and it was almost done in whispers, you know, he's not well, or he's having, and this was the phrase that was often used about my dad, you know, he's having a nervous breakdown. Well what did that mean, and what was that related to? And so I think there's a lot more understanding now, but in the past the shame associated with it was often evident.

SPEAKER_00: 7:29

Yeah, that makes sense. So to continue laying the foundation for both of you, before we jump into the three main pillars, I'm curious. You both have families. Uh, what do you do in your family atmosphere that is completely different than your childhood? In the mental health realm. Mental health realm.

SPEAKER_01: 7:53

I think it goes back to what I just finished talking about earlier. I think we check in on one another and are open about how are you doing? Are you living we talk about in the church and we've talked about this in our family, RPMs, how are you doing relationally, how you doing physically, how you doing mentally, how you doing spiritually, RPMS. And I think within our family, though we don't do a checklist, so it's not saying there's a formal, we are open to talk about those things, and that was never mentioned, it was only ever crisis in the past, whereas now it's much more open and discussed within our family as to where we might be on some of those areas.

SPEAKER_02: 8:33

Yeah, I mean my my context with my family is you know, young. I've got three three young children under under seven and um with my wife Hannah. I think one of the things for me growing up is I I can look back now and say I was I was quite an anxious child, but I didn't have particularly going into my early teens, um, was was a real high anxiety season for me, and I didn't have the words at that season of life, I wouldn't have even been able to package I'm feeling anxious as a as a word. Um and and that's that was no one's fault. Again, it's a little bit like Steve said earlier, that was a partially a church context, partially just people have grown in their awareness and language for some of the things that people are are feeling inside. So I think in in the in relation to my kids, even at a young age, you know, now I've got two kids in school, I'm trying to give them an opportunity to, you know, be open about how they're they're feeling and foster a conversation about, you know, how how's today, you know, you can sense your in your young children like th things aren't quite right when you've come home today. Well, you know, not going to force the issue, but giving an openness of how are you feeling about today? Has something made you feel sort of sad or are you feeling confused about things? In words that maybe they understand at their young age, to try and foster whatever it is that you're you're feeling after today. I want us to be a safe space in our family to you you can say anything to us as parents, and we want to help you understand that at different times, because I think the reality is for all of us, even whether we'd say we've got specific, you know, more acute mental health struggles or not, we're all going to face this sort of sense of challenge in that area. And and what are some strategies that then we can put in place for you to say, yeah, I I can I can cope because I I have these strategies. And uh, it's like Steve said, uh checking in, but definitely trying to give a an opportunity and language for them to sort of say, yeah, things aren't quite right with me today.

SPEAKER_00: 10:41

Yeah, I think that's super important. I think the common trend throughout all that was dialogue, right? The back and forth and having the space and being able to talk through it. I think a lot of times we get hung up, you know, do I say the right thing? How do I do it? But I mean, Steve has an acronym, you check in a different way. So I don't know if it matters as much like how it's done, but that dialogue and that space to be able to communicate is is awesome. Well, before we get into the big portion of it, um I wanted to see if Steve had a question for me before we start.

SPEAKER_01: 11:13

Yeah, uh my question to you would be, Nate, what started your fascination and curiosity in relation to mental health and your own experience of that that brought you to this place. So you wanted to do even a podcast like this?

SPEAKER_00: 11:27

Yeah, absolutely. So I lost my grandma to her mental health battle as a kid, and it was always something that was super confusing to me. And so the mind has always been very intriguing because she was the Robin Williams or, you know, fill in the blank, always smiling, always helping, taking me to church, helping people, like would pull over and help somebody on the side of the road. To me, she was the light of the world. So, you know, as an eighth grader, I could not like wrap my head around or really understand that, you know, I'm going to this funeral, and then I find out kind of the circumstances of how it happened, and then come to find out she would lay in in bed for weeks at a time, and that was something like to your point, Steve, like grandma-grandpa hit it, all the grandkids had no idea, and no one could talk about it. And so it was something I really wanted to have difficult and powerful conversations. And you know, if any one of these conversations helps one person along the way, it's really all worth the time and effort to uh, you know, save someone from saving, you know, making a permanent decision uh for a temporary problem. You know, there there's darkness and there's things like that, but um, there is a way to get out of the spiral, and I think that comes from hearing from other people and that connectedness with other humans. So, you know, this is my way of continuing on my grandma's legacy and really just being the light that she was in my life to be able to hopefully be the light in a few other people's.

SPEAKER_01: 12:47

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00: 12:49

So we'll move into the first main pillar, which is mental health and faith. So, how do you define mental health through the lens of faith? Who's going first? You go, Steve.

SPEAKER_01: 13:01

How do I define mental health through the lens of faith? I think it's really important to understand we're holistic beings, that we tend to separate out ourselves more than we should. And Jesus said we're to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. So the mind isn't unspiritual, all of that is spiritual. We are first, I think, spiritual being. I I believe this for every individual. But the spiritual part of us is not separated from the mind, and the mind is not separated from the physical, and so they all form who we are. Um, and I think the mind is a tool to be that we have as part of our makeup of who we are, body, soul, and spirit, to be used for the glory of God. Like the physical can be sick, so the mind can be sick, and it's no worse or or better, one way or the other. We we we know we often if we're physically sick, we know what we want to do. We go to the doctors, there's no no other thought about it. But when it comes to the mind, we're often less re we're often more reluctant to do what we need to do to make ourselves healthy. So I think it's part of the the whole person, and I think it's as spiritual as the spirit and and the body.

SPEAKER_00: 14:15

Are you taking that one, John?

SPEAKER_02: 14:17

Yeah, I guess I'd I'd sort of kind of go slightly to the side and just say that you know, I think there's a a real connection between when we think about how you know mental health practitioners more in a medical field might think about some good strategies for dealing with some of the challenges that we might face and what we see in the Bible. And I think that's consistent across when we read the Bible as Christ for us, as as I am, and then we look at sort of more of a scientific approach. I don't find the Bible to be in opposition. I actually find the Bible to be in support of and actually bring clarity and maybe an extension to kind of the wisdom that's being presented medically. So if I think about, you know, maybe some of the strategies even around anxiety, is that something that I've been familiar with? You know, often, you know, medically we'll talk about in terms of counselling or therapy, well, you need to acknowledge the thought and then you need to sort of find a way of refocusing the mind. But I think the Bible actually aligns with that really, really well. I mean, the Bible is very much open to the fact that we have struggles in our life, like Steve said, whether that's a physical ailment or a mental ailment or relational challenges, we all have struggles in our mind. You know, you read through the book of Psalms and you've got, you know, loads of lament and clearly at different points, mental anguish that's going on there. There's clearly struggles. But for me, where the Bible kind of elevates it a step further is it's not just a kind of acknowledging that, okay, you know, that's the thought that I'm having, but I can kind of acknowledge it with a sense of hope because I can kind of see that not only have I just got to acknowledge it, but I believe as a Christian, as a Christ follower, that God is with me in that position of darkness or that challenge that I'm facing, that I'm not alone there. And then refocusing, like that's like a Hebrews 12 talks about fixing our eyes on Jesus. That's a deeply biblical idea that I need to get my focus and I need to kind of change it and redirect it towards, you know, something that's healthier. And for me, that's definitely part of my faith connects into that as well. So I think there's a real like cohesion between kind of the Bible and and sort of other, you know, more medical thinking on that. I think that's really encouraging for me.

SPEAKER_00: 16:41

Yeah, and I think that's super powerful and such a good reminder. Like when I was sitting down trying to name the show, I really like honed in on mental fitness. That's like one of the key words of the title of the show for me. And I loved it because I feel like mental health has kind of a negative connotation. It's a building, it's a place you go on the worst day of your life. Like it has that negative. But mental fitness to me seems like it captured it so well. And to Steve's point, it's like the whole body. Like you will talk about your workout and what you're gonna do to go to the gym and new workout plans. And people openly talk about I'm working on back and buys and I'm Tuesday and Thursday, but it goes to mentally I was not gonna talk about that one. And so I love that you guys both kind of touched on that, where it should be able to be holistic and you know, that whole thing where we should be able to talk about how we're getting through things and uh things like that. But I'd like to expand a little bit, John, and maybe shoot it back to you, because this is something I struggle with a little bit. I'm in the medical field myself, and and so sometimes I struggle at work with coworkers and things like that, where they're like, well, of course I don't believe. I'm a scientist, I'm I'm medical. Like there always seems to be like almost a default. If you believe one, you can't believe the other. So could you expand or you know, say anything more about how you see those, you know, science and religion coming together? I see them together, but I feel like most people, at least in my field, do not.

SPEAKER_02: 18:05

Yeah, I mean, totally, like I said, I mean, from my perspective, I see those two, you know, working in together. And I think some of that has been for people, you know, at different points, you know, the church has maybe, you know, kind of come into opposition with, you know, certain things, you know, in the scientific realm, or or it's been presented that way, that there's this warring kind of going on. And I think maybe that's maybe impacted how some people think, well, I can't then hold, you know, this this scientific understanding and and a biblical faith. I don't see that as true. Actually, I'm sort of blessed to know people like yourselves, but lots of people, you know, across the life of the church who actually see their Christian faith and their biblical understanding as not kind of in opposition to what their scientific field is, but actually adding a layer beyond. I think the Bible's not a a science textbook, um, and so I think it's kind of helpful to not try and expect it to be one and to interpret it well according to, you know, what is actually the author saying in different places and and what's being written too, and and so that helps. But equally, I think, kind of like I alluded to even in sort of referencing the Bible just before, I think when it does touch on some of these issues, actually it actually aligns well and almost gives it a a step beyond that kind of helps add to. Yeah, maybe I think for people it's that sense of they've heard something said in the past that maybe haven't been well articulated by a pastor or a group of a group of Christians, and that that kind of gun can kind of done damage to people's ability to think, can I really correlate these two things together? And I think that's a shame because I do think they they sit together well.

unknown: 19:54

I think.

SPEAKER_00: 19:56

Yeah, do you have any words that you would uh give to someone where to you know kind of pique that curiosity?

SPEAKER_01: 20:03

Yeah, uh j just if I come on the back of what John said there, obviously you mentioned where we're based. We're we're based in uh uh in Cambridge anyway. John's in base at Edmonds, but this city is a very academic city, the university dominates everything. So, as John said, we we have a lot of people that are involved in academia or in the science world, which Cambridge is just growing by way of pharmaceutical companies, so a lot of science-based and I would say uh the advantage of being here 30 years, there are increasingly more people in that academic science world who are comfortable marrying the two together. Because I think it's exactly like John said, we we don't pretend that the Bible is a science book that tells us all the how of everything, but science can't equally tell us the why, and really what the boy Bible I've I'm pointing to my Bible because I've got it open here. What the Bible does address is the why behind so much of those things, so it gives people reason and meaning, and science doesn't answer everything. If science did answer everything, and I know some may disagree with me on this, but we wouldn't be in the situation we're in in the world today, so it clearly hasn't answered everything. Whereas the Bible does address those issues where science cannot and does not. So I don't think there's any contradiction, and I find a lot of scientists now who are very comfortable to be able to address what they know, but be honest of what they don't know. And I think Christians likewise, we should be honest with what we know from the word of God, but not try and pretend that there's other things that we think we know that we don't know. I remember when I first moved to Cambridge, I was a little bit intimidated, if I've got to be honest. Um, you know, people in front of me reading the Bible in Greek or in Hebrew, and you never know who was there, Nobel Peace Prize winners sitting in the congregation, and and I thought, I'll try and bring illustrations from this world and that world. And a guy just said to me, Why don't you sell us what you know? We'll do with what we know in our world, you know. So I don't think we need to be intimidated, but that we can work together.

SPEAKER_00: 22:11

Yeah, I love how they come together. I wish there was more of that. Like one thing that's most powerful uh for me and recharging is nature. And I think a lot of times nature is another one of those things with, you know, pagan and, you know, I guess the conflicts and things over time where those are seen as completely different. But my recharging from the Lord is seeing the awe and the power of a heavy storm, like when I lived in Japan and the waves would crush the rocks, or when I was lived out in Guam and there's no light out there on the islands where you can see every star as bright and it's just awe-inspiring, and you know like there's no other explanation than God for something so powerful. But it seems like a lot of times, like, oh, you like nature, then you're not religious. Like, no, those go together, at least for me. So I'm glad you guys touch on, you know, science and things coming together. I wanted to ask you guys if you were open enough. Uh I think, like I said earlier, starting the show, I think the best way to get through some of these things is connections with others. So have either of you wrestled with anxiety, depression, or burnout in your spiritual walk and and how did that work out?

SPEAKER_01: 23:22

Yeah, uh I mean John mentioned his as as a child. I I'll mention myself right the way through my life. As a young in my tweenage years, you know, between eight through to twelve, fourteen um I had uh quite severe mental health issues. I was under a psychiatrist, I went for therapy. It wasn't always accepted by my parents what I was getting, and I was just about to be actually go to a residential establishment for them to help me with some of the areas that I was struggling with where we had a death in the family of my grandma, but it just it just didn't happen. Things were were too caught up with that. I I would be physically sick in rooms because I couldn't cope with I had social anxiety. No one ever called it that. I used to have to have with me a mint in order to concentrate and suck on the mint to get the smell of the mint because if there were any other smells in the room, and in a boy school there were plenty of other smells, I would be physically sick. I had a phobia of buttons as a child. I couldn't touch buttons, it used to make me feel ill. And I had anxiety that was was quite now for me, I'll have to say part of the answer to that was regular prayer from my dad that brought me into a freedom. So that's why I believe very much in the power of prayer. And I would say that from the age of 16, probably through to 25, maybe a bit older, maybe 30, i it I it was like I was free from it totally. Never had I was quite um yeah, confident and didn't struggle with it. But as I've got older and through other seasons, I've had to fight some of that again. Not in the same way, not social anxiety by the grace of God, but sleeplessness has been a a a factor I've had to battle with these last probably 10 years. COVID was an extremely difficult time for me with some of the trauma that I personally faced, with uh the loss of someone in the church. It was very early on, and I was I was there with them when they died, and then my mum died just after, not from COVID, but as a consequence of not being able to get into nursing home. And that deeply affected me, and I I went for some therapy at that time to help me, which it did help. It was with Christian counsellors, which was just my choice. I think Christian or non-Christian, both are great. I just wanted someone who maybe understood the pastoral ministry a little bit more, and I felt the pressures of the church at that time because we weren't able to meet. I'd been used to ministry doing it a certain way for 30 years, and suddenly it's taken from me. So that there's a lot of anxiety around that. I was anxious about not being able to meet with the church, what it meant for our staff. We have staff members, I was concerned for them, but we had a building. Would our money dry up? Would we be able to pay for the mortgage? And it all got very much on top of me during the COVID time. And that's when my sleeplessness started. It was a little bit before then, but that was really when it started to hit hard. Yeah, I've had to take medication and get counselling in order to get through that and lots of prayer that's been associated with it. Thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_02: 26:40

Yeah, I mean, I I sort of alluded to it earlier. I think, you know, wrestles with anxiety and different forms have kind of been particularly true, sort of in out of my teenage years. But it, you know, I I really do kind of like Steve said, I do believe um part of my faith believes that in healing and in the supernatural, that's that's part of the Christian faith, you know, and I don't think that that believing in healing and and that God heals and touches, because I'm I'm confident of that, both from a biblical reality and from what I witness, you know, through my life and pastoral ministry, and also embracing the need for medical help, whether that's you know, medication or counselling, talking therapies. I I don't think those two things have to be in opposition to one another. It's kind of like where Steve was talking earlier, maybe from a more one of the sort of negatives of past of Christian ministry. And so um I think that those two kind of work together. Well, I do believe at some point I really had a touch from God, but at the same time, that doesn't mean that as I've gone on, kind of it's a very similar story to Steve, as I've gone on in life and and got older now, there aren't still moments where that becomes a a bit more of an intense battle once again in a season, whatever causes that to peak up. And I think for me, one of the big things that's helped that um has been to grow in my openness and a and willingness to talk to people. I would encourage people to engage in talking therapy and see their doctor as they need to at 100%, but on a more sort of maybe fitness level, kind of like you referenced earlier. I think for me to be more open, was able to do that in my relationship with my wife, be open about how I'm I'm feeling, you know, that that was a big, big step for me was to actually start to talk more openly about how I'm feeling, but also to find good community. For me to find good community on so many different levels, which I think the church can be really good at, whether that's uh just a cohort like a small group or whether that's a mentor figure, people that I can talk to and open up with and trust on so many different levels has really helped, I think, with my mental fitness.

SPEAKER_00: 28:51

That's awesome. Yeah, I love that you guys touched on balance. I think everything in life is about balance. And so you need prayer and scripture and you know, spiritual community in that healing of the mind, but there's also medicine and counselors. So I love that you guys touched on both of those because I feel like sometimes we want one extreme where you're just gonna pray and not take any medicine and just get worse and worse. I don't think that's the solution. Or, you know, you know, just taking medicine and not praying is also not the solution. And so I love that you guys touched on both of those, like combat it. And you know, there is the supernatural, but there's also, you know, God provided us doctors and humans that are very smart and medicines that could help things too. So those are both provided uh through different means. Uh we'll move on to the next pillar. We touched on most of this, so we'll probably go over this one pretty quick, but it's the generational wisdom and evolution. We talked about it throughout the family, but we'll try to transition this more to the church as a whole, the church community. But what conversations about mental health and how has that changed in the church during your lifetime?

SPEAKER_01: 29:56

Yeah, well, I've had a longer lifetime than both of you guys, so I can probably sneak into that. I mean, here's one example. We as a church have done in the past, and we're doing it again this year, a series, a preaching series on Sundays on mental health. So we've got some people coming in who are experts in the field, and we will take probably three, maybe four Sundays addressing issues of mental health. That was never done 30 years ago. I don't remember anywhere anyone, not Saying there wasn't, but in my recollection, no one talked about it that openly. And just by the very fact, and we've touched on this, by having it open and there, people don't feel afraid to raise it because it's part of the human condition, it's part of what we have to face. And I think in the 21st century, it's probably exacerbated because of I'm on it, but I'm not a great fan of social media and all these devices. I am on it. But I think some of our young people have a harder, and I'm glad they're able to talk about it than maybe I did, because certainly the comparison trap that is there that they see in the bombardments and they're never switching off, you know, it's proven scientifically, it really does affect one's mental health. So the fact that we now are putting it out there, we're preaching about it, we're speaking about it, we don't want to shame anyone ever, just going back to what you said before, Nate, about taking medication, because the issue could be a chemical imbalance that the medicine can help you in. Take it. Whereas in the past, it was just seen as, oh no, I'm never going to touch that. You know, it's wrong to do it. No. If you need it, you need it. If you need talking therapy, then you can do it. And we will always pray. I think even in the Bible, where mental health is obvious, it's mentioned, though that term isn't used, it probably was often layered as well. It probably had to do with physical, it probably had to do how that was affecting the mental health. It could have been demonic on occasions, and and we mustn't be afraid of speaking about that, because there is a devil who wants, we believe, who wants to rob, kill, and destroy. So I think you need discernment in that. But it can be as much as anything believing the truth, because the truth will set you free, which is where talking therapy can really be helpful because we can establish what's the truth. The Bible says, you know, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Sometimes some of the anxiety that we're facing is because we're believing a lie, and we have to recognise that lie, and speaking the truth to one another can really help. That's changed in 30, 40 years. The openness about that and the willingness, even to say what I've just said, that it could be layered, and it's not just, oh, we've got to pray for this, it's the devil that's attacking you. It could be the devil that's attacking you, but it could be a chemical imbalance, it could be that I need to talk these things through, it could be that I need prayer. That's a different world today, and it's a better, it's a better context than it was in the past.

SPEAKER_00: 32:54

John, has it always been pretty uh well spoken in your uh lifetime?

SPEAKER_02: 33:01

No, I I don't think I don't think so. I think it's very similar to what Steve said. I think certainly in the church that I grew up in, um it would be a very similar experience to kind of how Steve described. So I've seen a b a big change. I think one of the things that, you know, you know, we've both sort of been quite open, you know, Steve especially in terms of his journey just before. And I think when I came to C3, just about 15 years ago, one of the things I really appreciated about Pastor Steve and Angie's leadership and teaching was their willingness to open up on, you know, we're particularly talking about mental health tonight, but to to open up on a whole range of subjects with vulnerability. And I think that that creates safety within a congregation for people to be grappling with a whole range of issues in their life, but to do so with openness. And so I think that's that's a really important thing for the church on a whole range of issues, especially when it comes to mental health, is to model an openness that helps people be open about where they are. You know, because one of the things that I think is really destructive in a lot of areas is this, is this isolation. And it's particularly true in a, you know, when we're struggling with poor mental health of doubling down on thoughts like, you know, it's only me who's facing this, you know, I'm I'm alone. No one else has had these thoughts, like, you know, something must be really wrong with me. And for me, you know, I know that, you know, those are obviously lies, but they can drive us into isolation. And actually when we come out of isolation and understand sometimes something that can be incredibly freeing is just to realize I'm not actually the only one who's who's been through some of these things. And even to have that knowledge can sometimes just lift us to sense that I'm I'm not alone. And so I think that's so, so important in in the way the church does ministry.

SPEAKER_00: 34:53

Yeah, which is awesome. I mean, that was one of the main purposes of the outreach of the show is I feel like that downward spiral that we talked about earlier, and there's eight billion people in the world, it's nearly probably impossible for no you know no one to have been through something similar, or at least be able to empathize, connect with you, and and save space for you. Everyone's been through some stuff. There's way too many people for it not to have happened. I'm curious from your guys' standpoint, one of the stigmas I think are the most common things is like getting help is weak, and you know, that's kind of like the thing that we're getting over, and we're it's getting better. What support do you have from the Bible that c combats getting help is weak?

SPEAKER_01: 35:35

Oh, you have some really deep questions, Nice. What what from the Bible? Just could you just say the question again?

SPEAKER_00: 35:42

What uh what references or support do you have from the Bible that combat the phrase getting help is weak?

SPEAKER_01: 35:51

Well, I th I think I would start with um the Bible's very clear that we we are dependent. We we've got to call on God first off. So um the name of the Lord's a strong tower, the righteous run in and find safety. We are we are just as human beings, we are fundamentally weak. We need a saviour, we need a s a rock to stand on. So I think there are lots of particularly the Psalms, um, Jesus said, In this world you will have many troubles, but take heart, I have overcome the world. So he was very honest. Trouble is going to be part of what we face, and mental health may be part of those troubles. I think um I'm trying to think of scriptures and certainly stories you can find where we are are encouraged to call on God for help. Now, I guess in your question, it's it's wider than God, it's looking to one another. Scripture I can think about is in James, where it says, confess your faults or your sins to one another so that you might be healed. That's an obvious reference to I need someone outside of my sphere of influence in order to help me. And even the confession of that sin can be part of that. Another scripture where it says that we're to carry one another's burdens, you know, the the whole of the New Testament is full of one another scriptures. In fact, it's probably more about brothering and sistering than there is about shepherding. Sometimes we think we'll go to the pastor for the answer. He doesn't always or she doesn't always have the answer, but we can go to one another and support one another and love one another, and that's we need one another. I think the very first, I'm gonna roll now, I'm gonna I'll stop in a moment, but the very first scripture to Adam that talks about it's not good for man to be alone shows that there was something that was missing that was inadequate, even in the garden that was perfect, that showed he needed a fellow human being to share his life with. And that's when God created woman. So the first not good is creation of community, then to answer the problems that the loneliness that clearly Adam was was suffering and feeling. So I think it's there right the way throughout, both by way of calling on God for help, but of being aware of our fellow brothers and sisters around us that can be that that support.

SPEAKER_02: 38:16

Yeah, that's good. My mind went straight to James 5. But I think another scripture that comes to mind is in Ecclesiastes 4, verse 9, where it talks about two are better than one, because they have a good return for their labor. If what if either of them falls down, one can help the other up. But pity anyone who falls and has no one to help them up. And it goes on to then talk about, you know, a three-chord strand is is not easily broken. In other words, I think this need for us to reach out to one another for all kinds of help and support as we journey through the struggles of life, is a deeply biblical and Christian mindset, is that we cannot go through the journey of life in isolation from each other. Even the picture of God that we have, we believe in in God as a Trinity, there's one God revealed in three persons, is this picture of community. And so we really desperately need this connection. And of course, you could just bring that down to the level of, well, we need neighbors and we need other people that we know in our church. That's definitely true. But I think, you know, when I think about pick to the person who has no one to help them pick them up, well, that's why we need to, you know, have people that we can go to who can help us get back on our feet at times and know strategies and things that are gonna help us. So that's why we need to go and and get help. And that's not a weakness. It's actually the only way for us to go through life to the fullness, because we might just maybe endure it on our own. We might just about get through. But none of us really want to just make it through life. We want to flourish. We want to be fit in every area, like we're kind of talking about mental fitness. I think if we're gonna do that, we're gonna need uh people on our team through life.

SPEAKER_00: 40:08

That's perfect. Yeah, John. I like how you flipped it. You know, if you say that it's like weakness, you almost flipped it the other way and saying it's almost a non-negotiable, it's a requirement. And that's a much better way. And it's so nice to reframe things and the visuals through the strands and picking up someone. I thought those were all really good. The final pillar we have today is the church's role in emotional healing. So in the modern church, uh what gaps do you see between between theology and therapy and what are the bridges?

SPEAKER_01: 40:40

Gaps in theology and therapy. Well, again, uh because this is my world, the church world, I think there's been a rise of people who are willing to marry those two together, theology and therapy, and not see as a contradiction. Historically, I remember times when it was, if you spoke about you going for counselling, people kind of looked at you askance and said, Really? You know, isn't the Bible enough? But now we've realized the Bible speaks to that, and the therapy working with the Bible is probably the best way to go. I mentioned Romans 12 before. You know, be be be transformed by the renewing of your mind. If we can go into therapy that is scripturally based, for me there is no contradiction. I this is just personal. I'm not against non-Christian counseling. I think it could be helpful and useful. I mentioned before for myself, I wanted to go to someone who understood my world and could marry therapy and theology together, and they did it beautifully for me. So I don't think there's any contradiction, and I think we just need more people who are willing to dive into that world. The last few years there's been a whole plethora of books in the Christian genre around emotional health, about how important it is to be emotionally healthy, and I think all of that fits very well, and the research only ever backs up what the Bible says. I've never seen anywhere where it's contradicted what the Bible says. So I think any more research into that is only going to be good. Um, emotionally healthy leaders is something from a guy called Peace Cazaro in the States, New York, he was based, which is really good of living this balanced life so as that we do make sure in every sphere we are we are healthy and doing what we need to keep that health. Books on Sabbath that have come out in the last few years, again, that that only help us to understand the rhythms of life. And a lot of it, when you read it, I was reading some stuff today by John Markoma, if anyone knows his work on discipleship, and there's so much that he draws on from the world of therapy as well, that just marries beautifully with scriptures, particularly around Sabbath and rest and rhythms. You know, there's a science to prove that's all good stuff. Well, that will help keep us in that place of of of uh I don't see a a division there.

SPEAKER_02: 43:03

I kind of just see it kind of tried to express this maybe early on when we were talking, an elevation when we can bring in the the the God and the Bible aspect alongside in harmony, because we can kind of go one step further beyond those things that could be really helpful, even with a, you know, a counselor or you know practitioner who who doesn't hold a Christian faith. But I think for you know, certainly if you you hold a Christian faith, we have a hope and an anchor in our faith in Jesus, in our looking to eternity that kind of just levels up, layers up. So I don't see it as a conflict, just a sense of when actually we can marry the two together, we can kind of come into something with an even greater possibility for us to, you know, no more hope, have a greater certainty as we look even beyond just living our life here on in this time we have on earth, but also looking towards God's promise towards eternity as well. I think that just kind of levels it up for us, really.

SPEAKER_00: 44:10

Yeah, that makes sense. So you guys are both in leadership positions and help do programming, and you had mentioned uh the next you know series coming up. So, in in that vein, what does it look like to create safe, judgment-free spaces inside these sacred locations?

SPEAKER_01: 44:28

Yeah, I think John mentioned before about the power of community. Community is healing in and of itself. If we isolate ourselves, there's a danger that we play the same record in our head. Whereas we need community to balance us. So I think what we're very intentional to do as a church is create those spaces where people can talk. So Sundays tend to be larger, or at least not always the most conducive atmosphere. So we want to create other spaces where people can talk and talk about the issues they're facing. For us, small groups, as we would call them, or we call them C3 groups, but any context where there's this open and honest dialogue that's safe, so as that we have this rule, nothing goes out of the small, unless it's something illegal. If it's illegal, it's got to go further, it's got to go further. But if it's not illegal, then it stays within that group so as that they can feel safe within that. And then if it does need to go further, so someone said, you know, I need to get extra help, we could do it with the person's permission. You've done it all within community. I I think community, community is is a massive healing. And the church, because no one is perfect, and we must seek to avoid judgments, and I know the church is known for how it's brought judgments, but I think ultimately it's God who's in the judge's chair. So we need to be, you know, the old saying goes, You've got two ears and one mouth, use it proportionately. We should listen to people and be willing to create those safe kinds of contexts. For us, it's small groups. Now we do have other groups that might be more specialists, and so we do have groups. We have in the week we have a mental health group where people can call in, drop-ins where they can be honest and talk. We sometimes had people around that they can signpost them to go elsewhere if they need additional help. So I think it can help as well to highlight one of the issues that maybe it is. When it was after COVID, there was a big issue about people being so isolated. We created evenings just for the community. Anyone could come in just to get a warm meal or um a drink, no questions asked, just be together. But that was sort of a specific season where we were trying to create the well, the country was trying to get back on because loneliness is a huge issue and plays deeply into people's mental health states. So I'd say community is the biggest thing we do, which we do regularly in all kinds of contexts.

SPEAKER_02: 46:57

Yeah, and I think part of our pastoral care model, you know, kind of coming back to what we talked about earlier, if we're counselling someone who's, you know, going through a real you know, mental health crisis or really struggling in that area, is to marry together what we call what we'd say, well, we're gonna pray into this and we're going to say, you need to get to your your GP, or you know, we're gonna have a you know, here's a couple of good counsellors who we trust. It's kind of seeing those two things kind of coming together, even in the way we might pastorally counsel and engage with members of the congregation. I think that's that's helpful to create a safe space. I think the other thing that comes to my mind, just going beyond what Steve said, is I think another thing the church can be really good at that can really benefit people's mental fitness, mental well-being, is in serving others, creating context where we can serve others. Actually, you know, that's the our example when we think about our Christian faith and the example of Jesus is that, you know, Jesus is one who served. It says, you know, came to not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. Our example is then to serve others. And there's something very powerful about uh us improving our mental well-being when by serving other people, because it's this natural sense of us taking our focus to a degree off ourselves and in serving others, there's, you know, a whole range of benefits that can be, you know, better explained explained by someone maybe of a more you know scientific background, but there has this whole range of benefits for us, and it really changes our focus. So I think that's another great thing that we encourage people through the life of church. How can you serve others, whether that's in our church setting or in your local community, because that's a a kind of a Christ-centered example of living?

SPEAKER_00: 48:50

Absolutely. Yeah, we were, you know, creatures to be built in community, and it's time and time again, you know, the science shows that helping others, you know, makes you feel better. So it's another science and God coming together. I'd like to try to bring it all together. It's okay to love Jesus and still need a counselor. So what's one final message of hope you'd offer to someone struggling silently in their faith community right now?

SPEAKER_02: 49:16

I would just encourage someone to say, no, like you mentioned earlier, Nate, you know, you may be in a dark moment right now, but there is hope. Uh there is always hope. There's hope. That's the reality, certainly, when we're thinking about in a faith community, there's hope because of Jesus. But there's also hope for you to move from where you feel in a place of you know, real challenge and darkness today, as you sort of refuse to stay isolated, as you step out, maybe take a really brave step of, you know, even maybe after you've listened to this, picking up the phone to someone and or or getting booked in to go and see your GP or contacting a counselor or, you know, whatever it is, reaching out to someone in your church community, there is hope for you to not stay in this moment where you feel so trapped right now, but for you to move forward, for you to be able to maybe at first just make another day, but there is a hope for you to keep going and that you know you can sense that in your life. So darkness can feel oppressive in our lives, but the light shines and the light will break through. And that's I believe a biblical reality, as well as something that can be true in what you're facing in your life right now.

SPEAKER_01: 50:36

Yeah. I think as well, and I always try to say this to people who are fighting, they can often feel isolated, and so we encourage them to connect with others, but it's also true to say this in reality is with God you are never alone. And you know, you used the phrase then, Nate, about following Jesus and having a counselor is not contradictory. Equally, we need to remember Jesus is the wonderful counselor. The Holy Spirit that we've been given is called the paraclete, that's the one that comes alongside. In some translations, that is translated counselor. So Jesus is the wonderful counselor, the Holy Spirit is the one who comes alongside, he's always with us. The same spirit that raised Christ from the dead, if you're a Christian, rests in you. So you are never alone. That is the truth. Even though you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, maybe the best verse known by many people, even though we walk the valley of the shadow of death, I am with you. You know, God is always with us, and to cultivate a consciousness of the presence of God literally can save lives. People have an awareness. In the middle of the night, when you wake up, I am not alone. He is with me. His rod and his staff is there to comfort me. His presence is with me. You know, we're giving the great commission, which is to go into all the world and preach the gospel. But the only promise, the promise that we have attached to that as a guarantee it'll be effective, is Lo version. Lo, I am with you even to the end of the age. So his presence is with us, and I think we should never, ever forget that.

SPEAKER_00: 52:13

Perfect. Well, thank you both for coming out. This conversation has been an absolute gift. Thank you both for your honesty and heart and being able to open up. Before we wrap up, where can our listeners connect with you and the work you're doing?

SPEAKER_01: 52:26

Yeah, well, I guess the best place is at the C3 Church.

SPEAKER_00: 52:29

Come to church.

SPEAKER_01: 52:30

Yeah, um, which you can find on our website. People always ask me what is my Instagram and all of that, and I never know it. So um I have to look it up and find out what is my Instagram, and I can't even find it as I'm looking, but I am on Instagram at Steve underscore C3, I think it is, and the same on Facebook, you can find me at Steve Campbell. But the church, the C3church.uk is probably the best place.

SPEAKER_00: 52:55

That's it. Sounds good. Well, John, you got anything else?

SPEAKER_02: 53:02

No, thanks for allowing us to just chat with you about this night. And I want to say thank you for what you're doing. I was really touched and inspired by why you started this and your desire that you know anyone who's listening to these would, you know, be encouraged, would sense hope in their lives. So thanks for what you're doing. Thanks for chatting with us, and thanks for you know touching others' lives through these podcasts.

SPEAKER_00: 53:29

Thank you much. Yeah, to everyone listening. If this spoke to you, share it, leave a review, and take care of your soul and your mind. We'll see you next time on Mind Force. I love you all. See ya.